Ammonia Level? 0
Nitrite Level? 0
Nitrate level? 5
Ph Level, (If possible,KH and GH and chloramines)? 6.8 hardness ~120ppm, got crushed coral in filter, -pH stable.
Ph Level out of the Tap?6.8
* Tank size (How many Gals) and How long has it been running? 200 lt, (about 80 gal) 1 year
* What is the name and size of the filter/s? 2 aquaone 1200 (1200 lt/hr) cannisters, just installed the second one today... UV sterilizer.
* How often do you change the water and how much? usually 25-30% every 5 days or so, but over the last month and a half, I've only been changing 40% every 10 days or so.

# How many fish in the tank and their size? 3 ryunkins about 6 inchs.
# What kind of water additives or conditioners? aqua plus (chlorine/chloramine neutralizer) Aquasonic goldfish salts, to 0.1%
# Any medications added to the tank? Triple sulpha, double dose.
# Add any new fish to the tank? nup
# What do you feed your fish? Earthworms, (store bought) blackworm, frozen bloodworms, frozen and live brineys, peas, gel food (store bought and home made), any veggies in the fridge, they like broccoli and zucchini, orange once a week
# Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt",
bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? Had one die recently of dropsy, another has become floaty (upside-down) and listless, hasn't blown up yet. Has two yellowish weird cyst things on dorsal fin, thinking it's epistilys, been salting the water up
# Any unusual behavior? as above..



Hi, just wanting to know if any of you have had any experience with this...

I was just proactively dosing my tank with Triple supha tabs, and I'd dissolved them in tank water (or thought I had) in a cup, I dumped the medicated mix back into the aquarium and all of the tabs had only half dissolved, Lilliath, being my greedy guts and my biggest started chomping on the tabs. I'd say she's got through about a whole tab (about 3 half dissolved tabs). I'm a bit worried about her gut flora.

Is there anything I can do? I've just changed 25% water and cleaned out the filter.... (of course with tank water..) I'll be feeding her fresh mushed peas, and maybe some orange for fibre, and avoid potential germ harbourers like live worms, but is there anything else I can do? I live in Oz, so I don't get medicated foods or maracyn....

Hey Madeleine!

I would say that you are doing everything you can right now. Really, there is nothing you can do if she has already ingested them. I would just keep a really good eye on her and make sure she is acting normally and eating and pooping right.

Feeding the peas and orange would also be a great idea. Let me know how she does.

Thanks for replying Sara! I'll keep my eye on her, at the moment she'sgrazing on elodea, so that at least will be a bit of fibre going into her. The fish that is most floaty is now up-right and grazing on the elodea as well. I think I'm going to run a course of TS on the tank, I did a once off treatment about two weeks ago with promising results, but Esther is getting floaty again, this is my tank of prize ryunkins, so I really don't want to lose any more. -Will keep you up to date.

Well, Lilly girl's not dead yet! she's actually quite fine! I gave that tank flakes today (nothing too bacteriogenic) let me tell you, they were all not particularly impressed, spoilt little boogers. Thinking of doing a bout a 50% water change on Monday, then another dose of TS, but this time I'll make sure that all the tabs are dissolved properly!

They're that hard to dissolve aren't they? I had to crush the darn things under a piece of plastic lid.

Sounds like Lilly's on the mend though which is great news

Glad to hear the tabs didn't seem to do any damage

Madeleine, I am glad she is doing well. Sounds like you're taking all precautions which is good.

Yikes! That was scary - close call! I am glad to hear that Lillath is surviving her superdose! I hope things continue to go well - at least if the meds don't kill her you will know she is the healthiest fish alive!

I use a mortar amd pestle to crush drugs (small ones are relatively inexpensive) and the same effect can be achieved by putting the tablets in a clear plastic bag and taking a hammer, meat pounder, or back of a sturdy spoon to pulverize the tablet - then the power dissolves really easily into water.

PS -
That is a very special insult in the Dutch language! Love the name Madeleine!

Thanks for all your responses. Lil is fine now, Ephraim is fine too, did a big 50% water change yesterday and all is fine. Poor Esther tho' she's been moved to a 'rubbermaid' and I'm planning to start treating with Tetracycline. I woke up yesterday and she was so weak that she was stuck by the suction of the cannister filter inlet. Just waiting for my waterchanges to dilute the TS in her water. Will do another 50% change now and start treating today....

BTW, Graham, Yeah, Dave thinks it's great that he can get away with calling me fishwife! I get to call him 'Old Mr Poopy-pants' in response!!!

Glad to hear that Lillath and Ephrahaim are doing better - all better -
We are thinking of Esther and knwo that she will pull through in your capable hands!

Hi Madeleine - i moved my fish from TS to tetracycline and she's improved enormously.... I hope it works well for Esther and my fingers are crossed.

whoa bummer,

No improvement on Esther... -She's now just sort of lying/floating on her side, her spine is kind of spasmed so she's curved in one direction.

I think it's too far gone, she was also spasming for the last two days. I hate seeing her like this, I'm not sure whether we can get over-the-counter clove oil, but I'm gonna go down the street today and find out. I can't bring myself to cut her head off.

I only had Schlomo (the guy in my avatar, and the one that won pic of the week a month ago) and Esther for about 8 months. I'm scared now, cause I got Ephraim and Lil' only a couple of months after the other two. I don't want to lose all of my ryunkins. Since our computer was stolen I've lost all my beautiful photos of Schlomo and Esther. I've got a new camera, but I'm still working out how to use it...

sorry, a bit miserable this morning...

Wow, mega dose of antibiotic food....

I suggested to Jen that perhaps mixing some tetracycline in gel would make a good medicated food to get the antibiotics inside quicker. Same thing here, if you can't buy it, make it? Its not a invalid idea really!

No indeed. I made up some gel food with the tetracycline and about 12 hours after feeding, my maddie stopped resting on the bottom (listing to the side just moving with the water) and her redness cleared completely.

I really hope you can give it a try Madeleine - and I'm praying it's not too late for Esther

Wow, thanks for the suggestion Tamianth! I'll give it a go!

Sorry I've got bad news, but my little Esther died about 5 hours after I did the last water-change I mentioned in my previous post I guess I'm kind of relieved as I hate seeing fish in pain. Jen I'm so glad to hear that your little Maddie is looking better... (like the name! )

Soo, now I have got this situation....

I have in the same tank as I mentioned above, now, 2 6" ryunkins. I have done a 50% water change 2 days ago, and another 30% this morning. Lil has her dorsal fin down and is not 'scarily' listless, but is somewhat more floaty than usual. The thing that's really got me worried now is that Ephraim is starting to pinecone on one side! -And he wasn't even acting sick before! I don't get it, their environment is close to perfect, and the tank has contracted some weird-arse infection. I'm thinking it maybe viral, it's been pretty quick to spread and I've got UV to knock off bacteria and fungus. My babies have not had any other infections up until now... I'm thinking, maybe it was the worms i feed them? -But none of the other tanks have got this infection and all my other babies have been eating the same diet, infact my female tosakin has been getting more earthworms/blackworms than anyone else (priming for spawning)

I've turned off the UV and added tetracycline this time, and added a couple of air-stones. -As usual, Lil the little greedy guts munched on the remnants of the tabs, but I think it was just the floculant left after the drugs have dissolved, so am unsure how much has got into her gut. I'll try making some of the Tetracycline gel food, but I fear that this disease is out of my hands.

Aw man - i'm so sorry to hear about Esther Madeleine, that's so sad

I hope it's not out of your hands - I'm praying the gel food will do some good. It's certainly worth a try.

Just a thought on the food, I have a suspicion this is what led to Maddy's bad infection. I purchased some tubifex and blood worms and now a couple of my bigger guys are affected also - blood streaks in the tail etc. I've tossed the stuff in the bin but am now treating 3 fish that were so healthy prior to feeding this a week ago. Like you, I keep their water excellent so something happened to cause this. No new introductions to speak of (all qt'd in my smaller tank) - so there's a possibility it could be in the food.

A bad supposition but it's about the only thing I can think of... I wonder if yours is the same brand of worms I fed?

For what it's worth, i'd definitely go with the medicated food - you never know, it may help. I hope so.

Yeah, it's a real bummer... I'm in the luck position that I'm used to losing fish so I'm not completely devastated. I love my babies (surrogate children), and I struggle to keep em alive, but after working in a retail aquarium when you have little deaths every day you kind of become immune to it. I miss my babies, but it's not as difficult to deal with as it was before I worked in the aquarium... weird huh? I guess I put that energy into trying to save my other sickies....

As for the foods, I don't feed em tubifex, I know it's meant to be very nutrious but these guys are reknown for spreading disease. I feed mine live black worm, they come from a local grower in Melbourne called the Pinxt Bros.(I know these guys and I put every faith in their products, they're good guys, they also raise brineys for Melbourne area.) via my lfs, my lfs keep the worms in a holding pen that is linked with their out-door pond goldies holding tubs through the same filtering system, they're not just kept in a manky old bucket with an airstone that has water changed every other day... so I dunno, these are the healthiest worms I've ever seen. Other live food I've been feeding is Pieces brand earthworms, that I've rinsed off very thoroughly. I've also been feeding them thawed bloodworm, I think it's like an AquaOne brand?

Hmmn, I dunno, it's got me stumped, coulda been any of these....

As for the update, no better, but at least no worse. Ephraim still has a swollen-pineconed side, Lil' is still floatyish. they're still hungry which is good, they're currently chasing an orange wedge up and down the tank. the water is starting to go that brown stained colour that tetracycline does. I'm leaving the elodea in the tank until it really starts to die off, cos I think they still like to pull algae and leaves off the plant.

Hmmn, apart from that, just a little stress on my behalf cos I really don't like feeling like a bad mum. Everytime I lose one I just feel like I'm a bit useless, that I coulda done something more. -Next time I'm going to my husband's ex-girlfriends sister who is a vet and getting her to prescribe erethromycin tabs, I've heard it's good for dropsy. or perhaps dabble in the art of AB injection.... Maybe I'll go to a local dodgy aquarium and buy some cheap sick fish and experiment on them, see if I can get the hang of bringing them back from the brink... -It'd be better than experimenting on fish that cost $125... I can't believe it, if I lose this whole tank it's gonna be $500 worth of fish... I know, it's not really about the money, cos I love the fish, but still, it cuts a bit deep.

Sorry to read that Tos!

Depending on whats causeing the pineconeing though, if you can get a injectable, go for it. Much faster intervention. The shots are not that hard to give really. The vet should show you how and where,

If they (vets) have baytril, it would be much better. Either as injection or crushing the tabs and making gel food. There's a short list of other injectables also.

The prefered spot for injections is "IP", the little armpit area behind the pelvic fins @ a 45* angle. Unless its a pregnant female then you want to go "IM", along the back or tail area... between scales.

Here's the url for Doc J's insgtructions and he lists the preffered antibiotics. Might do some good to have those names etc on hand. You can alway's print it out and take it with you to visit the vet!

http://koivet.com/html/articles/articles_d...name=Techniques

That's a brilliant link Kathy and Madeleine, it's good that your hubby's ex's sister is a vet ( - good to see everyone gets on well) so hopefully she'll sell you some without you having to take your fish in there.

My fingers and toes are crossed for you and IMHO, you've gotta be one of the best fish ma's around. They're darn lucky to have been adopted by you

Kathy, thanks for the site, it was great! I'm trying to get in contact with Pheenie (vet) at the moment to get a prescription/tuberculin syringes etc. Doc Johnson is great! I got that book of his, 'Fancy Goldfish', that's where I learnt about AB injection. I'm willing to do anything to save these fish..

Jen, yes we all kinda get along I like the vet sister better than Dave's ex, the ex is not a bad person, but she's a little too much of a drama queen for my taste, the sister is much more down-to-earth, no bull, but still, I respect the ex because she is one of Dave's close friends.

Thanks so much for responding to my thread, it's good to have someone out there when things go wrong for me. I'm hoping that you are having more luck in treating your fish than I am Jen, I've really got my fingers crossed, for both of us...

Ditto

Your more then welcome Tos! Doc J is re-doing the koi health & Disease book also <read just change the name from Koi to goldfish here> As soon as its out I'll let ya know. He taught the wet lab I took in June. Great person and a good laugh! Has a good sense of humor so the class was not only interesting, it was fun to boot!

I agree with Jen too, lucky you have access to a vet! Its hard to find one here in the states that will deal with them. There are a few, but so scattered around!

I'm going to see if I can find out from OSU who does in Oregon, I know there's a couple. But Dr. Morgan-Miller is the head Vet. proffessor there and also helps Doc do wet labs here in the state so he should know!

Hi ToS - I saw your post about Esther - I am sorry! Even though you have a healthy professional detachment - which a good thing, you are fortunate to have developed one - it is still hard to see them suffer! At least she at peace now.

We have had a few peopel losses here lately so I have not been able to respond to your htread... I did wnat to say that when I had feed Graham metronidazole, I crushed up the tablets and made gel food - worked like a charm! I think I used these proportions, roughly:

1/2 cup - a mix of pulverized pellet food (Pro-Gold), FD krill, and spirulina flakes -
(anything would work as long as it is crushed up to powder or finely shredded)
1 pkg. - gelatin
~6-8 oz. hot water

I put them in ice cube trays and left them in the fridge until they set - then I froze the unused ones for later use. I measured the dose of medicine for the amount of days I needed food and made enough mixture for that time - seven days.

It sounds like you are in good hands with Jen and the vet and your friend! Injectable anti-biotics should make a quick difference! Fancy GF is great for instructions - so I ma glad yo have it already - I think everyone should have a copy.

I hope we hear good news of Ephraim soon!

Oh guys, I'm not so happy... Ephraim is dying... He's dropsied, and now his tail is fraying, I'm afraid he's on the way out. Due to tetracycline I've had a cycle crash ammonia in the main (200lt tank) was 1.0ppm. Thank goodness my pH stays around the 6.8-7 mark, so that offers some protection from the ammonia, and I've been doing daily 80% changes over the last couple of days and upping the salt dose (at 0.3% now). I'm trying to keep that ammonia under control.

I haven't been able to get in contact with Pheenie (friend vet), but went back to my trusted aquarium for some numbers for vets who could help. I was given the name of one who is supposed to be a herp and amphibian expert, but apparently advises one of the main distributors in Melbourne (closest thing for fish treatment around here), I paid $20 for a phone consultation with said vet, he was supposed to call me last night but didn't bother to call until this morning, and then he didn't take me seriously... Told me that I should not be feeding my fish anything but commercially manufactured foods and only 'treat' them to peas occasionally, that the peas could be fermenting in their stomachs, causing the bacterial infections , also told me that I should have a prefilter on my intake tubes to my cannisters. The latter being good advice, but not helping my situation. Wouldn't give me a prescription for Baytril, which is why I bothered to call him in the first place.

The (insert derogatory explicit here) so-called vet didn't help me one iota, and my babies are still dying. I couldn't help but cry today, I'm totally at my wits end.. I'm just so depressed that I can't help them.

Graham, I'm sorry to hear about your people-losses, no one close I hope? either way, I hope you are feeling okay, I haven't been around much, treating my babies, so am not up to date with KGW goss. -Thanks so much for you help with the recipe for the gel food. I'm trying Lil on it today (tetracycline). fingers crossed. Ephraim is not taking food, I've left duckweed floating in his 'hospital' incase he decides he's up to a little nibble, but most of the time he's floating on one side... <:'S

Tos (Thanks for your thoughts) - I am sorry to hear your news of Ephraim! It may be a longshot, but I hope he makes it.

What a wretched so0called money-monger vet! *&T%(& If you went that far, perhaps a call to the US would help - as Rick Hess is very generous with his time... but he cannot prescribe Baytril for you in Oz. Could you try a teaching vet hospital - or a vet scholl? If you have a very sympathetic GP, I bet you could get him to Rx it or provide a fish dose for you... It is for an aquarium fish! I don't think they need to worry about world-wide spread antibiotic resistance in this case! sheesh.

Do you have Medi-Gold? Baytril is a quinolone anitbiotic similar to oxolinic acid
oxolinic acid is one of the medicated ingrediants in Medi-Gold - along with the broad spectrum a-bios sulfamethoxine and ormetoprim sulfa. I don't know if you have any on hand, though... Just a thought.

Thanks for your suggestion, but we can't get Medigold, or any other medicated food here in oz. I've been looking around the net, but the sites I've seen won't post o/s.

Not much change in Ephraim, he's still floating on his side, breathing quitely. He still registers me when I walk up to the holding container I've got him in, tries to swim around, rectify his balance, then kinda gives up and floats there again. I floated out some duckweed in the off chance he was hungry, but he ain't taking food any more...

On the other hand, I don't want to jinx her, so I'm touching wood while I type this.. Lil is looking good. she has no sign of dropsy, she's no longer floaty and her dorsal fin is more erect than it has been for a while. There's still ammonia in the tank so it's big water changes again today. But I'm quietly confidant she might pull through this one....

~runs madly round the house touching every piece of wood she can find

Maybe it was something to do with her munching on the TS tabs?

Ok - we all touched wood, too! Come on, Lil!
Maybe that super-dose really did the trick!

I checked at GC - he is shipping to England and Canada now - I will call him tomorrow and ask him about Oz - obviously it would take a long time to receive a package at this point... but, I guess at least for information/ first aid kit sake...

Poor Ephraim - I hope he is not in pain. Is he still not eating?

Just saw this thread, I am so, so sorry to read what is happening here ... I really hope your fishies pull through

Poor little Ephraim passed on last night. I'm glad it was quick, well, reasonably... He was such a gentleman, friendly but not over-bearing, was happy doing his own thing in the tank. RIP baby, I loved you my little gentleman.

What a B*gger! I'm really pooped off. -Still, Lil seems okay tonight, been doing 70% waterchanges every day (thats 120-140 litres every day! -At least the garden's getting a good water..) Will keep you up to date... I'm thinking if Lil' gets better, I'm gonna move her to the other 6ft tank and strip down this tank.. I'm gonna set it up with maybe three or four sarassa mirror-scales, I've really started to get a yearning for some single-tailed varietys.... Haven't had single tailed varieties inside for yonks, maybe 20 years.

Poor little Ephraim passed on last night. I'm glad it was quick, well, reasonably... He was such a gentleman, friendly but not over-bearing, was happy doing his own thing in the tank. RIP baby, I loved you my little gentleman.

What a B*gger! I'm really pooped off. -Still, Lil seems okay tonight, been doing 70% waterchanges every day (thats 120-140 litres every day! -At least the garden's getting a good water..) Will keep you up to date... I'm thinking if Lil' gets better, I'm gonna move her to the other 6ft tank and strip down this tank.. I'm gonna set it up with maybe three or four sarassa mirror-scales, I've really started to get a yearning for some single-tailed varietys.... Haven't had single tailed varieties inside for yonks, maybe 20 years.

Thanks for you kind thoughts Kim!

And Graham, THANK YOU so MUCH! I really appreciate you finding this out for me, wow, your kindness blows me away! Been thinking of you and GN. I'm gonna check your thread on GN now... I've got my fingers crossed for you both.

Geez Madeleine - that sucks. I'm so very sorry Ephraim sounds like a truly beautiful little guy

The vet you contacted sounds like a total tool - which must have been so frustrating. Have you had any luck getting onto pheenie yet?

Yeah, got in contact with Pheenie, she couldn't help me. -She's more of a farm animal vet, wasn't willing to do a favour for a friend. I can't really blame her, it's her choice. But still.

Lil's still okay today, I don't think i'm out of the danger zone yet tho....

I am sorry to hear about Ephraim! He is with Jean now, playing in perfect water! I am glad that his pain is over. He sounds like a wonderful fish!

I called Rick yesterday but got the answerign machine - I will try again on monday. I guess they are not open ont he weekend - and they had a new auctuion yesterday... anyway - I will write in as soon as I find out.

Sorry no one seems willing to help you (outside of Kokos, I mean). Sad! But, we will all do the best we can! We are thinking of Lilliath!!!! Wanna hear good things tomorrow!

Thanks Graham for trying Rick. It's so kind of you!

Well, today Lil is no better, but she's no worse, so that's not too bad. She's still less floaty than she was a week ago, and although her dorsal fin is not fully erect it's staying up more often than down, still a bit listless but not too bad. Poop seems normal, but always had been.

I couldn't help myself, I gave her an earthworm for dinner last night, I'd been feeding her nothing but soaked Hikari Lionhead pellets for the last couple of days, I'm sure that it's better to be feeding her fresh foods, but I'm giving what the vet mentioned a go...

-She was a lot happier when she got the worm, it perked her right up. Thnak goodness she's a female, so she doesn't feel the abscence of other fish as much (I always find males to be more sociable/school more).

Thinking of GN, gonna check your thread now.....

OK - Rick says he is SOOO Sorry bu they cannot ship to Oz! He said they have had so many problems with customs that it is impossible for him to even try again! I can try for you if you want - PM me! Why are they so nuts about fish food for an aquarium - I mean, it is a closed system - of ornamental fish ?! It is only an 8 oz. jar of food! OK - so I was angry for you - now you can have a nice day!

Glad Lil liked her treat - maybe it will motivate her! Not worse is a very good thing in my book!

So sorry to read this Tos! I was so hopeing Eph would make it! You gave it a valiant try though and did as much as you could!

I have to agree with G. I guess I just don't get the thing with vets in regards also. It seems to me that as long as we are willing to pay for office visit and meds they should be more then willing to help us with our fish as well as our dogs & cats. Grrr!

I'm wondering if they would get a clue in if we all got petitions out to them in regards .......

yeah I know, vets are just like everyone else, they're there to provide a SERVICE, that's it. hrumph. I just think that they hear the word 'goldfish', and their brain just shuts off, it's like these fish are unworthy of any help, like goldfish keeping is not a serious business.

-like if I said 'discus' or 'flowerhorn' or 'biotope tank' it'd be a different matter, -because cichlids are popular, wild-type fish are popular then you'd be a real serious fishkeeper. but goldfish are just entrance level to keeping fish, it's what you get in a bowl from the show when you're 5 and if you keep it alive for more than 6 months you might progress on to -real- fish keeping and get tropical fish, which are -real- fish, goldfish are -easy- to keep, because they are so replaceable, they're so cheap.

Ergh, sorry end rant....

Thanks Graham, I'll PM you.

Lil today is no better no worse. I'm giving her orange today, she likes orange, she's spent the last 20 minutes ripping shreds off the slice I gave her, she's got it pinned up in one corner of the tank and is very excited about it all. I've still got my fingers crossed, I've got no meds in there at the mo, just 0.3% salt, and changing 50% water every second day. the ammonia is not creeping any higher than about 0.25 ppm at this regime, she is a sole 6" fish in a 6' tank, with two 1200 lph cannisters... Elodea's almost carked it, I think I'll chuck it today.