Hello there

Can anyone please offer advice on what is wrong with my poor oranda? I'll describe the symptoms first then follow with the answers to the Qs above. I have 2 orandas in the tank, both bought at the same time, both brought an (un)healthy dose of Ichs along with them

On one the face around the eys is very swollen and the wen seems to be coming away, it looks like when your skin has been in water for far too long. The viens in it's tail are more visible than usual.

It shares a tank with another oranda that seems to follow it around constantly and charges it every so often. This other one has a very frayed tail.

Both these fish are in a tank that is being treated for Ich. Each day since October 7 i have replaced 15% of the water by hoovering the bottom and maintain 0.03% salt. I have also increased the temperature to 26 degrees.

Here you can see the shocking pictures!!!

The Ich seems to have cleared but this new issue has arisen.

Ammonia Level? I'm afraid I do not have an ammonia test kit, will purchase one.

Nitrite Level? OK

Nitrate level? 25

Ph Level? Ph=7.4 KH=8 GH=>21 (the water here in brussels, belgium, is ridiculously high, it's off the scale on my test kit!)

Tank size/How long been running? 60 liters (15.85 gallons) it has been running about 2 months.

Filter/s? Atman powerhead 2.5W Hmax:0.5m Qmax:230l/h It seems quite small and sits in the tank. The water passes through some filter carbon.

How many fish in the tank/size? 2 both about 3.5 inches from nose to tail tip.

What do you feed your fish? Pellets, I soak them for about 1 minute then they seem to sink to the bottom. I add 8 daily in the morning. Every few days I give them something from the kitchen - peas, boiled egg, apple etc.

Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt", bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? The fish that is bullying has a very frayed tail.

Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, ect..? No they seem relatively active. They spend a lot of time at the top of the tank now the temperature is so high.

Is this a case of bullying or is this a result of the Ich treatment or maybe something else? Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Bill

OMGosh that it horrible!!! I have delt with ICK twice now and have lost the battle both times!!! I can't believe u have gotten your fish this far!!! U must have caught it early and started tresting right away!!! I was to late, I noticed it too late to save my babies!!

I wish I knew what was happening with ur babies!! I have never seen anything like that before!! I really really hope someone can help you before it is too late!! Lately it seems like no one is around on this site when u need them. I needed help and I got it to late. By the time someone responded to my post he was to far gone and he passed away!! I hope some will realize that ppl fishes lives are at steak here and they need to pay more attention!!

GOOD LUCK HUN!! I hope they will get better!!!

P.S. You said u have not been doing water changes?? I was told u need to vac ur rocks everyday until they are healed other wise you will never get rid of all that ICK!! So u need to vac ur rocks so when the ICK falls off u can suck it up before it relases the egss all over your fishies again!!
(Please disregard u have been doing that never mind!! Sorry I am no help!!)

Hi Bill - it sounds as though they are battling a bacterial infection also.

I don't think the filtration you have is enough for the size and amount of waste that is produced which may be having an affect on your water quality. Also, ich can cause secondary infections if the water isn't optimal - especially as they need the strongest immunity to fight off these things.

How much salt to you have in your tank? Is it 0.3%

Also do you have any aeration in your tank? This really needs to be increased while temps are raised.

When you say nitrites are ok - do you have a test for this? Or does the strip say ok range? Hopefully it's sitting at 0.

You could do a 60% waterchange adding back the salt you remove and if you are able, try to get some medicated food to feed them (if you live in the States, this is readily available). Then, at some stage in the near future, perhaps it may be time to look at adding another filter. The rule of thumb for filtration is 10 x gph so something in the vicinity of 600ltr (or 150g/ph). You can get some fantastic little hangon filters (Hagen AquaClear's are terrific) that not only filter the water welll but have the added bonus of agitating the water at the same time.

Hopefully they'll be ok and please post back soon

isnt that the "hole in the head" disease??

Hole in the head is usually an eruption/s that trails yellow mucus and the skin can take on a milky appearance then appear to come off in strands. Common symptoms are lethargy, loss of appetite and wasting away.

I'm trying to see if it looks like bacterial ulcers which are commonly caused by aeromonas bacteria or in some cases pseudomonas bacteria.

Bill - does it appear as though the break in his wen extends through several layers of skin? Or is it just the wen involved in the erosion? In a lot of cases ulcers are caused by opportunistic bacteria that already exists in the tank - and will result if the immunity of a fish is compromised due to stress, illness, poor water or damage to the skin from parasites or chemicals.

I would start him on medicated food asap and keep the salt up to 0.3% - and see if this shows any results.

hi thanks for the comments.

This is really, really bad now, the pictures are from yesterday afternoon. Now this morning the wen is almost all gone and the skin has disapeared from around the mouth. It's like it's poor head is disintergrating. This is definetly multiple layers of skin.

What has struck me is the speed at which this has happened. Just two days ago I was commenting on how heathly the fish looked after the Ich had cleared up.

I'm gonna take some pix but this is gonna be pretty distressing - for me and for those viewing. I cannot imagine that even if this were to get fixed that the fish could live on afterwards.

Oh the poor fish - I would be really keen to find out what this is so I can prevent the other one suffering the same way.

PIX to follow.

Bill

The following are the latest images - please be aware they are fairly distressing. You may not want to look unless you really know about fish and are checking to see what is wrong.

Here are the pictures from this morning

As compared to 12 hours ago.

It seems that I should release it from its misery - but how? As you may have gathered I'm not the strongest of stomachs. Decapitation may be beyond me.

oh my god...i'm so sorry....i was happy when ur fish was rid of ich but now....very distressing seeing ur fish, better put him down i think. have u got any clove oil?

It's over now.

I followed instructions as per this post.

Now to ensure that the other is ok - at least it is now ich free. Although I have to continue treatmemt for 5 more days.

U used clove oil?
Really, really sorry bout ur redcap....

OMG Bill - I haven't been reduced to tears so thoroughly as I was just then - not in a long time and all I can say is I'm so very sorry

May he rest in peace

I suspect columnaris as it can strike a fish down in 24 hours - with all the symptoms your poor little guy had. Keep a careful eye on your other fish and at the first sign you may need to medicate quickly - and make sure your water params are perfect.

The only meds I'm aware of that helps in this instance is Furan 2 or pp but others may know of meds available near you - specifically designed for this type of bacteria.

Salt dips are also recommended at this time.

My fingers are crossed that it won't be necessary and all will be well with your other fish and again, i'm so very sorry.

Wow that's terrible! I'm so sorry.

Poor little Red Cap!!

Rest in Peace, Red Capped Oranda.

JenW

Yes poor thing I will get some medicated food to senure the other stays ok. I'll be watching it like a hawk.

Do you think I should do a salt dip now? The remaining fish "Maki" seems ok. I suspect that he ate a lot of the parts that fell off "Futo" (sorry to be so graphic). What exactly is a salt dip?

Maki always seemed more hardy than the other fish so hopefully he's strong enough to survive through this.

I've reduced the temperature to 24 degrees C and will do so until it is room temp again. The temp was so high to speed up the life cycle of the ich. Now they are gone I guess it is OK to go back to normal. Although I'll keep the salt to 0.03%.

The filter is in such a position that it is pulling in some air and pushing bubbles into the tank. This will have to do for airation until the shops open tomorrow. I'm in Belgium and everything is shut on Sunday.

Thanks everyone for your support.

Bill

OMG, i am so sorry about your fish.

You could do a salt dip - if you see any sign of symptoms. You could do a 1% dip which would be a 1/4 gallon of water with 2.5 teaspoons of salt... I'm coming out the end of an ich problem myself and i salt dipped my fish during this time - although i did 3% dips which took 7.5 teaspoons of salt and kept them in for a few minutes...

If you feel comfortable giving him a dip - go with the 1% for now and see how he reacts... try keeping him in there for 10 minutes.

I hope he doesn't need it though and continues to stay healthy.

Bill - I am so so sorry about your little one. I am speechless. Keep us posted with your other one, please.

I am so sorry for your loss Hope all goes well with Maki...my thoughts are with you

Oh dear God! That was awful! I am so sorry! Please accept my deepest apologies for your loss...at least you did the right thing in putting him down. I'm pulling for your other guy to come through this unscathed. Good luck, and please keep us posted.

sadden to hear about your lost...I hope that you will never have to go throught hat again

~BILL~
I just got done reading your post, Saddened by the end results, Hopefully you will not have to go through that again!! It's always hard to lose a finned buddy!!
Sounds like your a good fishy daddy though and you tried to save him. Hope things look up for you soon. I assume that you do still have Maki though? Hang in there.....HUGGLES.....