ok.. background..
I have 55 gal tank...
6(7) goldfish, 1-SAE, 1-oto
Ph was dropping .. was down to 6.8.. added some bicarb.. brought it to 7.2
Nh -0, Nitrite-0, Nitrate -30, gh shows low.. kh shows ok.. 7 drops (added aragamilk to aid buffering (also have 3 small moonrocks to aid in buffering)

Food.. normally just Aquadne (which they love and has helped keep the colors right.. I make a mix of Duraflake Goldfish, Spiraulina and Veg.. crumble some for the smaller ones)

Filters: Emperor 400 , Emperor 280, Vortex D1, and Fluval 104 with surface skimmer attach.

the Calico ryukin (calico) started sitting on the bottom.. very listless.. and wouldnt eat... 3 days later passed away (all specs were as above)
started dosing with Melafix and Pimafix... after he passed .. stopped..

got a new fantail (Dusk).. andall was ok..
now one of my rescued (aka feeder)goldfish.. a small common named Ugly.. because he does have a very ugly mouth....was sitting a little.. and is spitting out food..

he Is active.. (this is as of last nite..) and he is active today.
now Ugly hasnt grown as much as the others has.. and he always went after bigger pieces of food... but would chew and spit out .. normally.. then chase after fallen pieces. now he's spitting out the smaller pieces too.. but he is active..
Reset up the Eclipse 12 as a hosp tank... no carbon..(basically an exhausted filter pad that I rinsed clean) and changed and dechlorinated all the water... (the biowheel is still bubbling... I've had it running before.. with only brief stops...)

placed Ug in there.. and tried a little food... he ate some.. but not as much as normal.. also dosed the 12 with MelaFix/PimaFix.
gonna keep dosing the big 55 ANd the hosp tank... for at least 7 days..
any suggestions??????
Parasites havent been a problem due to the Vortex (just recharged it last nite) and usually recharge every 4-5 days... (the Vortex runs 24/7.. it can.. so it does!)

before all of this.. about a month ago.. lost a rescued sarasa (yup.. a sarasa in a feeder tank) got something that looked like Ick.. but was bigger.. (I've seen discussion on other messages about a large parasite.. no tail.. nothing else.... had him in the hosp tank.. and treated with RidIch+,, didnt help.. fins rotted.. and he went south..( had to.. (sigh) you know..)

The HospTank was fully cleaned and dumped... all in it is new..(except for the biowheel)

just that .. about a year ago...lost all to Ich.. (it hit a white fish first... so no one saw anything until it was too late... only one from that time is the Oto.... the Chocolate got it.. but I added the Vortex.. and he came out of it.. that was last january....
all fish are from feb and march... (except the new Sarasa.. and the new fantail)

HELP!!! while Ugly IS ugly... dont want to lose him.. or the rest!!!

Rob

Hi RF - What country are you in? I am not familiar with some of the products you are using... and you put the date like you might be from Europe, England, Canada, Aus.... just wondering becasue the meds available in each country vary greatly so if we knwo where you come form, some members form those countries might be able to share more about remedies, etc, particular to your area.

Sounds like Ugly has a history with either mouth rot or a mouth injury that has left him crippled - he has always spit out some food since you got him?! THat will help determine whether that is due to a current infection (if this is a new symptom) or if he eats ike that becasue of scarring form an old injury.

How large are your GF?

Did you QT (quarantine) Dusty before adding her to the tank?

I am in a little bit of rush right now but I will come back later - I just wnated to help you get started - I lost a new fish last week and was very worried that I was going to lose them all so I completely understand where you are right now!

Hopefully, we can all get this sorted out soon with a good result!

wow ur tank has soo many freakin gadgets!!! What is a voxtra (or how ever u spelled it) what does it do. and I though skimmers were for salt water tanks. what do they do?

I am sorry u posted to get help and I am asking u questions lol!! U seem like u know way way way more than I do. U also seem to be doing everythign u need!! I really hope someone comes along that will have more knowledge!!!

Good luck and I really hope u don't loose Ulgy I kno how much it sucks to keep loosing fish!! I lost alot to ICK and a whole tank to gawd knows what!!

GOOD LUCK!!!

for the first reply.. Freeport, LI, New York.. USA

all were bought between 2/05 and 3/05 except for RedCap Whitefish (the Sarasa), and Dusk.. none are that big.. except Stripe and Shebunkin.. both are nice commons.. about2 inches in body length.. Ugly was always smaller than Stripe...(came from the same tank) but I think he has some kind of mild deformation.. btw... the last half day he has been sitting on the bottom of the HospTank... sometimes swimming around... but still not eating...

someone in Aquarium Adventure said that the Calico had a bacterial infection.. all the food tasted sour to him.. so he kept spitting it out...

are they any OTC tests for bacteria in the water???????

no.. Dusk wasnt quarentined beforehand... but the one he/she (never knew how to tell) replaced died the same way Ugly is.. the day before!.

for the second reply... a Vortex Diatom D1 Filter is a diatom filter that uses DE/Diatomceous Earth as a filter medium.. it's an old design.. a proven workhorse..(somr people have been using their Vortex filters for 20+ years).. and it can filter all particles down to 1 micron in size... which mean since most parasites are large... they get filtered out!.. DE filters by nature are a bit messy... but they are also known as water polishers... havent need of any kind of clearing agent since I got it... nor have I ever got green water again..

btw they are made in Ponce De Leon. FL!!!

A couple of things I have noticed, you are over stalked. And what is the ammonia? You never posted it. Do you see any symptoms besides the listlessness and the swollen gills (not eating)? What are the colour of the gills? Did you salt the tank? What treatment did you use for the ich, and how did they respond?

stalked??? I dont stalk my goldfish.. i do look in o them a lot.. but dont stalk them...
as for overstocked... I've had this discussion in another thread here.... 7 goldies.. none really big.. with 900 gph of filtration in a 55 gal.. and all specs are ok.. except for what I said about the GH/KH issue

Ammonia was the first thing I said.. Nh =0
(didnt see if the gils were swollen.. ) but no.. though I am treating ug in the hosp tank.. and he is still swimming around.. (Calico had a pinned dorsal fin)
the main tank has some salt in it..
the ick treatment for the whole tank was back in feb.. and it was just the Oto and chocolate... they came thru... (Rid Ick+_) and that was fixed with the diatom filter..

Oops lol. Stalked is meant to be the other stalked LOL. Lets try overstocked. Sorry about that. I must warn you, I'm a natural blonde whom obviously can not spell. Have yout ried a water change yet? Just want to make sure water is ok first.

I think the spitting out of food is a pretty good indication of parasites. The gills become swollen and it hurts to eat. I don't know what to say about your water polisher that is zapping small things. I am sure Toothless will be along shortly, he is the parasite expert.

I think the recommendation will be something with prazi in it, like Jungle Parasite Clear. But Paul will know what is small enough to slip through your Vortex!

well... Ugly bit the bucket this AM... got some medicated food anti bacterial and anti parasite food for the 6 in the 55 gal..(I think it's a curse.... the tank doesnt want me to have more than 6 goldies.. whenever I add one more... one other dies)

still dosing with pima and mela... water still checks out ok.. gonna drop off a sample with a friend at Aquarium Adventure who's a chem engineer by trade... he'll let me know what's up


havent found Prazi Pro around here.. but the anti parasite food has prazi in it.. and.. they have all eaten the food mix..(I have friends in the store.. he gave me the food.. but it was mixed together... so I wont know what it was.. unless another fish passes away..
But..Ug always had trouble eating... hey he was special


remember.. whatever this is. when the fish has showed signs.... (not eating... and some degree of listlessness.).. they both croaked in 2 days!! it's fast... just hope no one else get it!!

Sorry about Ugly. I have been overstocked before and it seems the number of fish in a tank will eventually decline to a number the volume of water can support. Especially with those big guys in there (commons, comets).

The melafix and pimafix are really just tonics that will help heal wounds or torn fins. I don't think it will help in this case.

I have done some reading on the spitting. If he was eating normally before, then it sounds like gill flukes. They are stubborn and you must aggressively treat the entire tank with prazi to get rid of them. 1st dose kills live ones, and then you must re-treat to kill the hatchlings.

Here is a link:

http://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/...showtopic=12696

If he has always spit his food and you say his mouth has a defect, then I don't know.

edit: I just re-read that your calico spit out his food before he died too. I think it is gill flukes.

Good luck!

Hi there. Sorry you lost your little guy...

I have a couple of questions and some suggestions for you:


When you say listless, do you mean pacing or showing respiritory distress? I mean pacing as in erratic, almost manic, swimming around the tanksides and whatnot.

Have you ever noticed flashing or scratching in ANY of your fish before you added these two, new fish?



There are two distinct possibilities here, KHV (koi herpes virus) or parasites. Both can work as fast as this.



Off the top, I am suspecting that you recently brought in a parasite with one of the two new fish. Or, the parasite has been in your tank all along and the new fish weren't ready for it. Probably costia or chilodonella. Those two work very fast at reproducing and can inundate fish within a matter of days. Both primarily attack the gills but not exclusively.

Using a diatom filter or a micron filter is an excellent addition to any parasite treatment. However, it cannot, and should not, be expected to remove every parasite in the tank. In short, they will NOT stop a parasitic invasion from happening.

Being overstocked is NOT just a matter of water quality. It has quite a bit more to do with just ammonia, nitrItes and nitrAtes. Having that much biological action going on in a tank will deplete your KH and pH values very fast, in between waterchanges. Also, having that many fish in a small body of water also allows for parasites to travel from fish to fish, very easily. They also have a greater advantage with all the fish skin/slime and gills to breed on.

Parasites and parasitic invasions aren't as straight forward as they seem on the surface. A fish that carries a parasite into a new tank is often one of the last to succomb to them. This is because the original fish in the tank are what is referred to as "immunologically naive" to the new invading parasite. In short, they are not prepared to deal with a pathogen they have never been exposed to. So, in reality, this parasite could be something that your fish have been harboring for quite some time. Then, the new fish added to the tank were the ones that were "immuno-naive". Either way, you get the picture.....


If you notice this problem persisting with any other fish, I HIGHLY suggest that you either borrow, or purchase yourself a microscope so that you can diagnose this in a correct and systematic manner. Or, take your most affected fish to the vets to have a proffessional scrape and exam performed. With a definitive diagnosis, you can build a specific treatment regime that targets that specific organism, or organisms are responsible.



Good luck and I hope you don't see anything beyond this.....


Paul

by listless. (in the case of Calico.. and later Ugly in the hosp tank..) they would sit motionless on the bottom... vs activly swimming around..

I understand all you are saying... be aware.. I've had 6 fish (including the common and the shebunkin) in this tank since feb.. and no troubles like this.. and that was without the fluval 104..

and yes.. my hardness has been dropping... not sure how to bring both up...(KH is ok.. but GH is proving a ###### to bring back up... and yes we have soft water here.. advantage of being near the shore and clean well water-- Long Island)

with regards to parasites... any opinions on using the medicated food?

Rob


btw in regards for a microscope.. exactly what would I be looking for???(no.. not the scope... in the water.. it's been years sicne I used one.. but.. well.. was a science major ages ago.. you know.. when dinosaurs roamed the earth....hey i still say Brontosaurus vs Apatosaurus)

Brontosaurus....... I haven't heard that one in a looooong time....


I have MANY, very helpful, links to post for you if you are interested in scoping for parasites. Just say the word and they'll be here for you.


Okay, well, parasites may or may not be in the picture here. Its still a very real possibility, though. But, bacterial infections are too. Feeding an antiparasitic food (jungle Labs?) would be nicely effective if the parasite were located internally. Since we do not know if or what parasite is there, I am not confident in the parasite food for eliminaan antibacterial or antibiotic food, on the other hand, would be a very good idea right about now. Just in case it is serious bacteial pathogen that is running through the tank.


Since GH is nothing but the total of ALL dissolved solids in the water you should'nt have to worry about the GH. It's the KH that controls your pH so thats what shold be concentrated on. If you can get it up to about 120-180ppm, and keep it there, then you are taking care of the pH problem very well. To do this, Baking SODA (not baking powder), an be added to your freshly drawn tapwater to bring your pH and KH up to optimal levels.


All in all, I would keep a very close eye on everyone for the time being. Let us know the moment you notice anything out of the ordinary....

Paul

well.. as i said.. I havent seen any outward signs of an infection or parasites.. (ick.. or such)

I'm feeding them a mix of both foods (yes Jungle's)..
and thanks for the info on GH.. the KH is fine.. and yes.. I have baking soda next to the tanks.. Plus.. I have Agara Milk (used for reef aquariums) which can add calcium and other trace elements and can help buffer the system..

I should change this to lost two... but ..well..I'm back to 6 goldies... (maybe the tank is cursed??????? it will only allow 6 goldfish????)

plus the Oto and the SAE.. and so far all those (well..I never see the Oto) are doing fine... and the goldies are chowing down the medicated food!!.
gonna keep up Pima and Mela (carbon is out of the filters rt now) for another week after i do a water change..I have heard mixed reveiws on Pima.. but I know Mela does a good job on cuts scrapes fins.. etc... have heard Pima is also good on internal fungus and bacteria... heard it was synergistic to use them both.

R
still havent found any PraziPro around here... thought I saw but cant remember where....

Cool.

If your looking for a good source of Praziquntel, Parasite Clear by jungle labs has it as an ingredient......


Good luck, Rob!


Paul

and it's also in their food... seems we are on the same topic..