A few months ago we rescued 2 lionheads and a fantail from certain death as they were being used as decoration (in small fish bowls) at an advertising company meeting. Turns out they thought it would be cute to have them on the table since the ad campaign they were working on included goldfish as part of the logo!

Anyway - to make a long story short we were not experienced fish people just happened to be preparing a tank at home (cycling the tank) to try out "hobby" when these fish came to us. Obviously in this case we had to just dump them from their fishbowls into the tank and although not ideal they survived. Due to their size and the fact that the 2 lionheads were bullying the fantail we moved Gilly, the fantail, into a *cringe* 5 gallon tank as it was given to us and we were getting desperate. The lionheads were in a 10 galllon. Again, other than a few minor bouts of ick for Gilly they have done well. With fantasies of giving them all a better life we purchased a 29 gallon tank over a month ago and followed the rules for cycling the tank. We tested all tanks for nitrates, nitrites ammomia and PH (making sure the PH was the same in old tank as new) and seeing that everything was ready to go we added the fish.

Here is where our problem begins. While the lionheads took to the new aquarium happily - Gilly didn't. Immediately she floated down to the bottom on her side and lay there gasping for breath. She would then try to swim up and maybe not accustome to the new depth of the water (??) she seemed to have difficulty reaching the top - once she did she would take a breath and then fall down again. Again ammonia, nitirites and nitrates were all at 0. We waited a few minutes to see if she would adapt, and then out of desperation we put her back into her tank where she began to swim normally. We also noticed that as soon as the lionheads had seen her, they began to bully her. We decided that the best thing would be for her to continue to be on her own and making sure the conditions of the 10 gallon tank matched her present 5 gallon tank we moved her the 10 gallon where the lionheads had been.

This was last night. This morning she is still sitting at the bottom of the tank and her scales are standing up - I dropped a tiny piece of a pea in the water to see if she would eat and she did eat a small bite but left the rest but her appearnace is worrying me. I have read that upright scales is a sign of dropsy - or could this be related to all the stress of last night? I realized we goofed because of all the quick changes - we just felt panicked by her lethargy as soon as she got into the new tank. The lionheads are still doing wonderfully.

I am also confused by the info I have found. Some say to add salt (which we have done in the past to help treat her ick and to help with stress) and other say that if she has dropsey this makes it worse and that epsom salt should be added. I am so scared to do the wrong thing. Please can anyone offer me some advice? Is this normal behaviour for a very stressed fish or have we created some larger problem ? ANy advice greatly appreciated.

Okay, this sounds like she became dropsied from temperature shock.

Was the temp in the new tank the same as the 5 gallon? Keep in mind that larger tanks do not heat up easily. smaller ones can become close to 80-82 degrees with just lighting alone.


Okay, being that this happend exactly when you put her into a new tank with new chemistry, here's what you should do:

Get a heater and two thermometers. Start raising the heat in the tank to between 80-84 degrees. Only 1-2 degrees per hour, maxmum.

Purchase some medicated food such as this: http://www.goldfishconnection.com/shop/det...uctId=8&catId=5

Maracyn 2 and/or 1 can be added if septicemia is noted (red patches, blood spots, spiderweb veins in between scalkes).


A little epsom salts might help as well 1/8 to 1/4 teaspoon per 5 gallons should suffice.


Good luck and keep us posted.


Paul

Thanks Paul!

We went to the pet store and they gave us Maracyn 2. Started with 2 tablets however when we got home she was at the bottom of the tank on her back She is still that way as I write this.

We are on our way to go buy some epsom salts - I wonder if it's ok to still add this if the aquarium she is in has some aquarium salt in it? While Gilly was in her 5 gallon tank we were treating her for a mild case of ick using salt as part of the treatment. When we moved her to the 10 gallon we thought it was best to try to create the same conditions as she was in by adding some aquarium salt - now after reading up on this I realize this was the worst thing I could do for a fish that has dropsy! I am worried about making any more water changes to reduce the aquarium salt as I don't want to stress her more. Do you think it would be ok to still add the epsom salts?

Re: the tank temp. We had the 29 gallon tank running for over a month at about 78 which was about the same temp as her tank (according to thermometer) but maybe her lighting added extra heat that I didn't take into consideration - breaks my heart that I could be responsible for doing this to her. People at pet store mentioned (maybe just to make me feel better) that she must have been "carrying" the infection and the stress of the moving caused it to show it's symptoms?? I have the Medi-Gold fish food but she is not interested in eating.

I am now also wondering if this is contagious. While she was in the 29 gallon tank with the 2 lionheads(for about 10 minutes) they were nipping at her tail. Mind you she only started showing symptoms during those 10 minutes. Do I need to treat that tank too?

Sorry for all the questions - I really appreciate the time you took to respond. I am just feeling incredibly guilty. I mean my intention was to give her a better quality of life in a much larger tank and I just can't belive how this has taken such a turn for the worst! Thanks again for the advice - will keep you posted.
Christine

Also forgot to ask........is the epsom salt a one time thing or does it need to be added at regular intervals? Thanks again.

Since salt cannot evaporate, you have to replace the salt removed during waterchanges. So, if you take 2 gallons out, you have to replace however much salt was in that 2 gallons. If theres a 1/4 teaspoon per 5 gallons, you would need to add 1/8 teaspoon of salt to 2.5 gallons and then add as much to the tank as needed to fill it.

Yes, begin leaching out the aquarium salt during the next few waterchanges. After 75% of the water has been changed, you can add the epsoms.


Many different bacterias can incite dropsied conditions. More often than not, it is a bacteria that can be commonly found in almost all aquariums. Even with all the abundant pathogens in aquaria, goldfish immune systems are VERY capable of dealing with them, but stress reduces this ability very quickly. I would say that the stress of dealing with ich, the medications used to treat it and the changes from tank to tank are the reasons this happened.

Don't kick yourself. These things happen to the best of fishkeepers. You ARE doing the best you can for your fish and thats the most important thing here. It is truly unfortunate that one of them fell ill right when things were suppose to get better for them. Try not to let it get to you.....



Paul

Thank you Paul

This morning Gilly remains on her back at the bottom of the tank - her postion has changed throughout the night but it doesn't seem she is able to flip over any more. Her colour is the same. Gave her her second dose of Maracyn 2 this morning. Should I attempt to help her turn over? Or does that kind of meddling do more harm than good?

Regarding the removal of salt: Am I still able to do these water changes while I am giving the antibiotic or should I wait until the treatment is over?

Thanks so much again for your time.

As long as the temperature and pH are a close match, you can change as much of the water as needed, when needed. I would wait until 24 hours has lapsed since the last addition of meds to do a waterchange. Then, after the change, start out with a fesh dose of meds.......


Good luck.


Paul

Well, Gilly died a few hours ago She really seemed to be suffering so I know it's for the best. Thanks so much for your support.

As the saying goes, "When it rains...." I just noticed now that one of my lionheads has what appears to be tail rot. Not sure if he has had this before - the set up of our new tank now enables me to look at them at eye level so it may not be new.

These 2 fish have never been medicated and I am worried about using meds right away. Should I attempt simple regualr water changes first before doing anything drastic? I imagine this is contagious so I must treat the whole tank? Once again sorry for all the questions - just trying to get my head around this fish keeping business. So far, it has been nothing but heartbreak.

Any advice greatly appreciated.

Grieving fish mom.

Sorry you lost her....


Lets concentrate on your remaining fish:


What are the test results of the water in the 29, right now?

What is the name and size of the filter/s you have on the 29?

Do you see any weird behavior like pacing along the glass, scratching or rubbing on ornaments, glass or gravel, rapid fin shaking, excessive yawning?

Name any additives you are using.

Post back soon.

Paul

Ok. Test results are:

PH - 7.5 - 8
Ammonia - 0 - 0.1
Nitrate - 5
Nitrite - 0.1
Temp of tank: 26-27 degrees cel.

Filters: We use 1 for the bottom of the tank (floor filter?) and the other one is made by Aqua Tech - we threw out the box so I am not sure of the exact size. Will measure and get back to you.

Additives: Right now we are just using Stress coat with water changes to remove chlorine and also using Aquarium salt. (1 tbs per 5 gallons)

Behaviour: For quite some time, the fish that presently has what seems to be fin rot, has had some sort of digestive problems. When we first got all the fish not knowing about food quality etc. we had them on the regular flakey stuff when this fish the lionhead-yet to be named!) and Gilly started floating to the top of the tank after each meal. Changed their diet to Pro-Gold but didn't know about soaking the pellets first. Once the fish were fasted for a few days the problem immediately went away. Started soaking pellets and I made a gel food with veggies and some mushed up Pro-Gold and this seemed to work well as long as he only got a mouthful or 2 - anything more causes him to hover at the top of the water. Also, even the pure soaked Pro -Gold causes him to do this. Used to think it was too rich for him but then I noticed that it happend with the other types of food if he has more than a certain amount. For example, this morning I gave both lionheads peas and the one with the digestive problems (really gotta name him!!) got an extra piece as he reached it faster than the other fish. He has been hovering at the top of the aquarium but it is not a constant thing. He has no problems swimming downwards and does not swim awkwardly. As I mentioned if I fast him for a few days this problem goes away. Not really sure what it all means. *deep breath*!

Other than that the only thing I noticed (actually just today) was that he seemed to be "burping" small bubbles every so often.

The other fish shows no odd behaviour. Will pay more attention to the yawning - I see them both do it once in a while but haven't given it too much attention. I don't think it is something they do frequently but will keep my eyes open!

Thanks again.

Christine

Ok, it is very important that we get the info on your filters. Look all over the body of the filters until you can get the size or model number or whatever.

Once I have this information, I can make some suggestions to you for treatment or fixing problems......

Paul

Hi Christine A.

I wont add anything to your thread as you in good hands here.
Just wanted you to know Im so sorry you lost Gilly
and I will be thinking of your 2 lionheads..Lionheads are my fav fish, so I really feel for you
All the best!

Ok. The 2 numbers I can make out are 20-40 and and 72062705. The position of my tank makes it hard to see clearly and I did it in a bit of a rush getting ready to go to work this morning so if it seems off let me know and I'll do a more thorough check when I get home. Thanks Paul

To LUVMUHFRED - thank you. Great to be somewhere where people understand that fish love runs deeply too! Thanks so much for your kind thoughts - I'll be keeping my fingers crossed for my lionhead too (promise to come up with a name TODAY!!) I have been holding off because it seems that as soon as I name them, they're gone! But I also feel I am in great hands! Will keep you updated.

Hi Paul,

On top of the info that I sent you above, the back of the actual filter says "series # 133 or 138" (the writing is etched in the plastic and is not very clear, can't tell if the last # is a 3 or an 8). The other numbers I gave you were taken from the bottom of the cannister that holds the filters. On the lid of this cannister it says "this product uses EZ-Change #3 cartridge".

Hopefully some of this info will be helpful?

Christine

If this is your filter here:

[attachmentid=7404]

Then you have the eqivelent to a penguin 170 bio-wheel filter. They are both made in the same foreign country and the ame warehouse. Penguin is made for Marineland labs. Regent is made for the walmart corp (?).

Anyway, this in itself is a great filter. It pumps at 170 gallons per hour. You can purchase a biowheel and bio-wheel assembly and mount it to your regent 20/40. This will almost double the biological filtration of the filter once the wheel becomes colonized well. you can ither omit the lid or cut it to allow the bio-weel to spin freely. I can help with that if need be. I have photos and a description.

But, this filter isn't enough for a 29 gallon. You need a total of 300 gallons per hour, or more, for it to be considered efficient enough for growing goldfish. So, you need about double what the 20/40 is providing.

I see you mentioned a "floor filter". What is the name and brand of this filter?

How are the fish doing?


Post back soon.

Paul

WOW! Yes, that is my filter exactly! How do you do this????

We did buy the filter at Walmart as well.

Where can I buy a biowheel and biowheel assembly? If this will help keep my remaining fish healthy and happy (and it doesn't cost a fortune ) I really want to take the steps to do it. Being new to the fish world I think idiot proof instructions would be greatly appreciated (seems you have dealt with people like me already! )

Our floor filter is nothing fancy - also bought in Walmart. Again, I don't have the box but it says "made in China" and the number on it is 004636 and 004635. We just have one meant for a 10 gallon tank in the 29 tank. We were short on $ at the time we bought the 29 tank and it's stand and we had 2 floor filters meant for 10 gallon tanks already at home. Both of them wouldn't fit in the 29 so we figured putting one in was better than nothing.

The fish are ok. Again I think the new tank and lighting are enabling me to see things more clearly now. I am seeing some white specks which I am assuming is ICH on the area where the one lionhead seems to have tail rot. The medicine I was using for Gilly to treat dropsy also says it is good to use for tail rot as well - but now this fish seems to have ICH as well. In your opinion should I start with the medicine? Or should I use the QUICK Cure or Copper Sulphate? Just treat with water changes and salt? I am so worried about making the wrong move ! I would really value hearing your opinion about this as it seems like you are a very experienced fish person!

I can't thank you enough for for your help and time. Taking good care of my pets has always been somthing I have prided myself in doing well - fish are such new territory for me and as I am sure you know there are not enough qualified people that sell you the fish to give advice as well. It has been extremely frustrating! I am very glad to have found this website and your help! (violins in background ! )

Christine

Hi,

Lets see what we can do here....


White flecks like grains of salt sprinkled on them? If so, yes, its ich. No worries, you can easily cure it with salt as per this link: http://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/...showtopic=12599

You can run antibiotics with salt but lets wait to see what the slating does for them.

Okay, you can get the bio-wheel assembly and bio-wheel from here: http://www.bigalsonline.com/catalog/produc...id1=1971;pcid2= here: http://www.bigalsonline.com/catalog/produc...ategory_id=2637 and here: http://www.bigalsonline.com/catalog/produc...id1=1971;pcid2=

I know its wierd that you have to buy them all separately, but there they are for dirt cheap.

I would head to a local shop and purchase some sponge material for aquariums. Add them to your filter like in this link: http://www.bigalsonline.com/catalog/produc...id1=1971;pcid2= .

Good luck and keep us posted on your progress!


Paul

Ok! Will follow the instructions and keep you posted.

Re. the "ich"- the white spots (approx. 2) are just around the tail on the area that looks like it has been bitten. (tail rot?) I have seen pictures of fish with ich and they seem to be covered with these white flecks. This fish doesn't look that way. I always assumed any white spots were ich - could it be something else? Or just the beginning stges of ich? Once again, sorry for all the questions!

Thanks again! :-)

Well, you can go about this two ways:

You can wait a couple of days to see if more popup (and old ones drop away). But, this could cause more stress and damage to them.

Or, you could go ahead and raise the salinity, as per the link above, for a week or two and be rid of them, if thats what it is.


Its your choice. Either way should be relatively safe. You can nip ich in the bud rather quickly....

Ok. Just another quick question. Read the info you wrote about increasing salinity which is really helpful My only question is what if I have already added salt to my tank? Before adding the fish I added 1 tablespoon per 5 gallons. Does the salt ratio stay the same if there is salt already in the tank?

Also, the link that you sent me re: the sponges takes me to the biowheel bearings page again. Could you send it to me again? I was thrilled to see they have a Canadian site so I am already in the process of ordering! :-) Do you know if the biowheel has to be replaced frequently?

Thanks Paul!

You will never have to replace the bio-wheel unless it broke somehow. You dont even want to do anything to it at all once its set-up. The only maintenence you need to do is to remove the bio-wheel from the mounting bracket (careful not to lose the little blue bearings) and clear out any built up gunk on the bracket and the filter. this allows the wate to move freely under the bio-wheel and allows the water to flow better.


If you already have salt in the tank, thats fine. From here on out, do waterchanges and heavy gravel vacs daily. When you go to add salt to the water going back into the tank, make sure you do not add any more than 2 3/4 - 3 level teaspoons per gallon. Since it cannot evaporate, the salinity increases as the water evaporates, so, do not use salt when topping the tank off from evaporation.

so, do a waterchange/gravel vac tomorrow and dose the water at 2 3/4 level teaspoons per gallon, the next day, do the same. Within 3 days, your salinity will be very near, or at, 0.3%.....

Heres the link you were suppose to get: http://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/...t=0#entry294025

Hope this helps!


Paul

Hey Paul!

I think my stuff should be arriving today so I am looking forward to setting it up and getting the treatment started.

I just have a few more questions I was hoping you could help me with.

First, is it ok to put ornaments and equipment from Gilly's (my fantail that died recently) tank into the new tank? It is actaully just a plastic plant that we washed with vinegar and water and then rinsed a zillion times. As well, a "bubble curtain" (I think thats what they are called) that she really only had in her tank for a day. Is the type of bacteria infection she had contagiuos? Is the way I cleaned the items good enough to be able to add it to the new tank?

Also, today as I am off work I have been watching my fish all morning and I am noticing that the fish with the "issues" seems to be coming up quite a bit for air, whereas the other one isn't. Checked the water again and it is just as it was the last time - ammonia 0.1, nitrates 5, nitrites 0, PH 7.5-8. Haven't started the salt treatment as I don't have enough right now to raise to 0.3% as you suggested. will come with my order today and I will start ASAP. If the water quality is OK, why does the fish keep coming up for air?

And finally, will the salt treatment also deal with the fin rot? Or do I need to treat this differently?

Thanks a bunch!

Christine

Sorry Paul, on top of all the other questions in the above post I now also have to ask you how I set up the biowheel which I just received today. By any chance do you have any idiot proof directions for this as well?

Thanks!
Christine

Sure, you can either go to this link: http://www.marineland.com/products/consume...guinfilters.asp and download the PDF manual for the penguin 170 and see the diagrams or I can just tell you and maybe that will work.


Just take the 2 blue "bearings" and slide them onto each and of the ceramic shaft that goes through the bio-wheel. Then, you take the bio-wheel, holding it level, and sit the bio-wheel and bearings into place on the trangular looking rack. The two little slot on the rack are there to accept the bearings.

Then, you take the rack and bio-wheel, all assembled, and sit it right on the edge of the water return slide of the filterbox. You should see that thare are two little areas on either side of the return that accepts the rack (along with the bio-wheel).

Now, your going to have to either omit the lid, or cut the lid so that the biowheel does not become lodged on the lid and stop spinning. here is a pic of how I cut my lid:

[attachmentid=7436]


If you cleaned the ornaments and plants as you said you did (with vinegar and hot water, rinsed WELL) then they are fine for the other tank.



Now, to concentrate on your fish and worries:


Generally, a goldfish coming to the surface more than another isn't anything to worry about, if it were quite a bit more often, then something could be amiss. But, other symptoms are usually seen along with surfacing to indicate problems. Are you seeing anything else that may or may not be suspicious? Any sort of manic behavior hould be noted and watched for other nuances to describe.


Off the top, I would go ahead with 0.3% salt and let it ride for at least 3 weeks. You can salt with most medications. This willl rid any possible ich and possibly other nasties. Time will tell.....


Paul

Hey Paul,

OK.....followed the instructions to attach biowheel but the only problem is that the biofilter gets in the way. In the diagram in the PDF manual it seems there is only one filter in the cannister - however ours has a blue filter back to back with the biofilter and it gets it the way and prevents the wheel from spinning. Does this make any sense? Basically we have the biofilter (white spongy thing) closest to the water and behind it (facing the wall) is a regular filter. Anything you can recommedn to fix this?

Thanks again!

CHristine

Absolutely. Just cut down the sponge so that the bio-wheel has clearance. Unless theres some kindof cage around it and they recently began adding them to the filters.....

Nope, no cage - I will give this a try. So it's ok to cut the biofilter? I was starting to get the impression that this thing was "sacred" and shouldn't be messed with.

Paul, if you don't mind, I recently posted about what I thought was an odd reaction my fish had after I added the first dose of salt to get my salinity to 0.3%. To spare you the gory details again the post is:" Message for toothless or anyone!" I basically wasn't sure if the fish was showing signs of dropsy or I just being paranoid. I just added some pics to that post, and here they are as well if you get a chance and could pass your experienced eye over them. I stopped the salt treatment until I got some advice. Just didn't want to screw up. Also, now that I have been paying more attention, find that they "yawn" about 2 times per hour. Orange fish is the one that gave me a scare last night - not sure - how close are fish's scales supposed to be to their body?