I'm just having bad fish luck lately. First, Wobble and Clementine... now Mrs. Chubbs! It seems like everyone around here is having problems...

My big goldie, Mrs. Chubbs, started having veiny fins a few weeks ago. The little ones had been picking at her tail, but at the time I had my hospital tank full of Wobble and Clem, so there was nothing I could really do. There was nothing wrong with the water quality, so I just left it.

About 2 weeks ago she started to get worse, veiny fins and a thickening slime coat. I bought a new rubbermaid tub (20 gallons) and put her in there, seeded the filter from the main tank, and brought it up to 0.2% salt. I did daily 80% water changes, but then I went away for 3 days so she was left untouched.

When I got back she was exactly the same. I removed the salt from the water and started an erythromycin treatment. I did 6 days of this with no change (recommended treatment says 4 days). Since then I've been doing daily 80% chaanges. Today I brought the salt back up to 0.2%, it will be brought up to 0.3% tomorrow morning.

The veining on her fins SEEMS to be decreasing... but the slime coat remains thick on her sides near her dorsal fin, and at the base of her tail fin. I don't know what's wrong... she's eating fine, but does a lot of bottom sitting and gasping.

Here are my stats:

Ammonia is about 0.3 at the end of the day when I do the water change, but I'm using Prime, so this might be a false reading

Nitirite and nitrate are 0

pH is 7.2, same as the tap

Tank is 20 gallons, one fish (~6"), running for ~2 weeks with 1 AC 20 and 1 AC 30

Daily 80% water changes

Using Prime at each water change

Did 6 doses of EM, last dose given yesterday

Fish is fed gel food and soaked pellets, with the occasional soaked flakes

HELP PLEASE!!

It sounds like your water is perfect, especially doing 80% daily changes. One question: What is erythromycin treatment?

Erythromycin is actually what Maracyn is. Squeeker,I'm sorry,but I'm not familiar with the problems that were going on with Wobble & Clemintine-could you go over that for us please? As for the excess Slime Coat,that can be caused by a few different things.A plunging PH will cause that,but so will an infestation of Parasites.How long have you had these fish?Have you added any new ones? If your PH is continuously Stable,you may wanna look into your ammonia readings.This could also cause ammonia burn which will give the excess slimecoat.I noticed you actually are having ammonia readings.Have you added fish and increased your biological load? If these don't pan out,then it's really time to consider Parasites for sure.At any case,a 0.3 % Salt solution should help. If after so many days,you don't see a change,then you may want to consider treating for flukes,or look into treatment for a salt resistent Trichodina,or Costia.Is there any way that you can get a hold of a Microscope,and do a scrape? Even though you seeded your filter's,by doing 80 % water changes,you may have upset your cycle.Are your fish showing any other symptoms,such as scratching/flashing/swelled gills/pale gills/

Devs, I've tried to take all your ideas and answer them in order (somewhat). Sorry for the disjointed-ness.

The problems with Wobble and Clementine are not related to this problem at all. They were fish that never made it out of quarantine. The tank that Mrs. Chubbs is in isn't even the same hospital tank.

As for the pH: it's remained completely constant. It can't be the problem. None of the other fish are showing any symptoms at all.

The ammonia in the main tank is zero. In the hospital tank, however, the Erythromycin killed the bio bugs, hence the 80% changes daily. I've also been using prime.

The main tank hasn't had a new inhabitant since it was set up.

The main tank underwent a Prazi treatment about a month or 2 ago.

Mrs. Chubbs doesn't appear to have either swelled or pale gills, if anything I'd say they might be a bit darker than usual... but I'd never looked at her gills before, so I'm not sure that they really ARE more red! She doesn't flash, and she's eating like a pig, she just sits looking slimy and sitting at the bottom the rest of the time.

Her scales aren't red like I'd expect them to be if she had Costia... and I don't have any access to a scope. I might be able to swipe the one from my parents at thanksgiving, but that's a month away.

Thanks so much for helping... any other ideas? In the meantime, the hospital tank is now up to 0.3% salt.

She looks better today... her fins aren't as veiny... but she's acting more lethargic. The slime coat is still just as bad.

SO frustrating!

Have you tried a salt dip of about .6%? That will strip the slime coat and nuke most nasties that might be lurking. You need to put the fish in the solution for 5-10 minutes or if it flips over before that, remove it.

I suggest salting your tank to .3% before you do the dip, and keep it salted at .3% for up to 2 weeks.

I don't know what is causing the problem but salt is a gentle but effective treatment for many ailments. It's all I can suggest unless some other symptoms make themselves obvious.

Im sorry squeeker to read you got more problems, especailly after Clementine and Wobbles

Got all my fingers and toes crossed for you here !

I'll try the salt dip, it's a good idea.

If I were to use med. food, should I use metromed or medigold?

Well medigold is designed to treat bacterial infections but I'm not sure about metromed, does it also treat internal parasitical infections? It's been a while since I read the Goldfish Connection site.

I suggest checking out the GC and read their recommendations for each product. If in doubt, feed both. Remember to feed for a minimum of 2 weeks even if the symptoms disappear.

Well, I did a 0.6% salt dip last night. I put her in, and she stopped breathing... then I realized that I forgot the dechlorinator

I added some right away, and she stayed in the dip for about 6 minutes.

Today she looks a LOT better. Much more active.

I think I've read that I can do dips 3 days in a row? If that's the case, I will do another one tonight.

Fingers crossed for my girl!

OK, I have a new question.

I was reading another post in the thread about the koi that swam into a lava rock and injured itself. Someone (I believe it was Tamianth?) suggested that any loose scales be pulled out and treated topically.

Mrs. Chubbs has one scale on her back, between her dorsal fin and her lateral line, that is half pulled out. When I first put her in the QT tank I touched it to see if it would come out, and she flinched, so I just let it be. I thought it would fall out by itself, or heal, but it hasn't. It's a bit fuzzy on the tip, but the area isn't inflamed or red around that pulled scale.

So, my question is, should I pull it out? I'm not too fond of the idea, but if it needs to be done, I'll do it. Please, someone just tell me how!

I just took some pictures of her. I never noticed it before, but in the first picture she looks pinecone-y...

Oh, forgot to mention that I did the second 0.6% dip tonight. She went for 6-ish minutes, and I remembered the dechlorinator this time

Here's the second pic of her scale injury.

I'm glad the salt dips helped. It appears as though all the slime has gone.

It does appear as if she is slightly pinconing and there is a swelling around her back area. This could indicate an abscess, perhaps the loose scale is where the abscess made it's head. The slime you were seeing may have been pus oozing from the wound.

If this is the case you have a localised infection which would be painful to touch. If the abscess drains itself in .3% salt solution of your tank it should heal without reinfection. There is a danger that the abscess may burst inside the skin and then you would run the risk of septicimia. Continue feeding the medicated foods as it will help the fish fight the infection from the inside.

It is difficult to tell from these 2 shots, any chance you could take a few more? If the swelling is more generalised than just a lump you could be looking at an internal infection. Once again the medicated food sounds like the best treatment.

ok, I will be going the medicated food route.

I've done two 0.6% salt dips... should I do more? If so, how many more?

I assume I should not pull the scale?

Here's another picture:

Good luck Squeeker!

I thought I could see a little bit of white haze towards the front of the fish, so another salt dip would be good but I would leave it at that for the moment.

In this photo I can't be sure if she's bloated or not, this is difficult. As Sharon mentioned earlier, the white haze could also indicate parasites/protozins but the salt should deal with that, if it's the case.

I'm going to ask a friend to drop by and give his opinion.

Hi Squeeker,

Annette asked me to drop by and have a look.

Well, this is certainly a interesting case. Almost like a locked door murder mystery.

I would agree with Devs' assessment that the first impression is that some kind of parasite might be involved. Are you sure nothing new was added? No new plants, ornament, even water from another tank? Your waterQ is good too so ammonia and pH shouldn't be a problem.

Annette, I don't see the slight pineconing you mentioned. It is certainly a chubby fish.

What is he behavior now? Is it acting normally or doing something odd?

OBTW, 6 mins in 0.6% salt is not enough. You should be looking at 30-60mins to be effective. I would expect no more than 10 mins with a 2-3% salt dip.

Hello CaptK and Fishmerized!

I did another 0.6% salt dip last night. She stayed in for about 6 minutes. I don't think she could manage 30-60 minutes! She gets really floaty and inactive after 5 or 6 minutes... I don't want to stress her out any more! However, there IS still slime on her (I don't think it shows up in the pics because of the flash) so... should I try a stronger dip, or a longer one at the same concentration? The dips as I have been doing them haven't changed her hazy situation. I will try to get a picture that shows the film better...

Really, nothing new has been added to the main tank. All the other fish are 100% fine.

I'm not sure if she looks a little chubbier since she got sick or not... I had never really looked at her from a top view before. However, she is a lot fatter than her "better half", Mr. Chubby!

She is still doing a lot of bottom-sitting. She's not as fin-clampy as she was before, but she is a lot more lethargic. She'll still beg for food, though... and she eats like a horse.

Other meds I have on hand right now include Prazi and Quick Cure. The only med. food I have access to is Metro, which I will purchase on Friday if we feel that it will help things. I figure it can't hurt much.

Thanks SO much for helping...

OK, I got a way better pic of the slime on her body.

I hope you can see it - it's just beside her dorsal fin, and then all the way up to her head.

Hi squeeker,

Are there any tiny blood spots under the slime? What about under her chin?

When doing a salt dip, the sign that you need to look for is when they rollover onto their belly. That is the true sign that they have had enough. I know we feel for them but you can't read too much into their every move or it will cloud our judgement.

Do you have good aeration in the HT?

No tiny blood spots under her chin at all, MAYBE one or two tiny spots on her side under the slime, but that's it. Are you thinking it's Costia?

No specific aeration in the HT (ie, no bubble wand) but I do have the 2 filters going, and the tub is very long and wide, and not so deep, so lots of surface area. The water temperature is cool, as well, so I don't think O2 levels are a problem. She doesn't gasp at the surface.

As for the salt dip: She does start to flip over after 6 minutes in 0.6% (though she can still right herself if I startle her...) She also gets so lethargic that I can poke her on the nose, and she doesn't move. Should I still leave her in longer?

Thnaks for your help (again!)

Well, we need to eliminate the various suspects and costia is definitely on the list.

With the salt dip, if she can still right herself then it is okay to keep going but I'm not there so I'm not going to ride shotgun on this. You need to make a decision based on your own observations and your fish's condition.

The other option is to hit her hard once with a 1.5% dip. She might only last a few minutes and see if we can stripe the slime off that way.

I am going to do the 1.5% dip in a few minutes. I'll let you know how it goes.

Thanks so much for the help... I just want her better!

Good luck Squeeker,

She will be stressed by the 1.5% dip so watch her like a hawk. Her slime coat will look terrible for a couple of days but then she will recover.

Yah, she did NOT like that. She gave me the WTF are you DOING TO ME?! face the whole time. She maybe lasted 2 minutes? I didn't time it.

Her slime coat already looks worse. All over, not just her back. The water in the dip got a film on the surface, too. I hope to never have to do that again!

CaptK, what do you think I should do about her half pulled-out scale? You haven't mentioned it. Leave it, I assume?

Thanks a ton again!

Hi Squeeker, it's all still confusing but don't despair we will get there yet. I'm waiting to see what Captk recommends next because I'm stumped.

Remember she still has a great appetite and that's a good sign.

You did good, Squeeker. I know it is tough on you but we have to do what we have to do. Just give her an extra helping of her fav food and all is forgiven.

As for the scale. . . IMHO, I would leave it alone for now. Dead and diseased scales will fall out by itself. It is how nature designed them. If they are still attached, they are ok for now. If you remove it by force then you would have opened a new wound and even if you treated it with iodine, there is no guarantee that parasites won't take advantage of that. Once she is fully recovered then we can look at removing it. At least she will be ready to fight off any invaders rather than just compounding the situation right now.

Oh, don't worry, I spoiled her crazy last night so she would forgive me!

This morning she looks about the same... I'll keep you posted.

Poor fishy...

*sigh*

I'd say that she is, without a doubt, pineconing. In the anal fin area. I'll be getting the metro today...

She's still eating, though.

OK, so I got Metro+ (This link) and made my own medicated food as per the instructions issued by Hikari (This link).

I fed her some tonight, and she gobbled it up!

I'm supposed to feed her this for 3 weeks, correct? Hopefully this will help, it's the best I can do.

She's not acting any differently, which I guess is a good thing, as she's not worse!

I think at this stage that the medicated food is the best treatment available. I'm glad you fish liked it.

Yes, I agree, medicated food is the best option.

No more salt dips for at least 2 days. She needs a break.

Maintain salt in the tank. You are on 0.3%?

Warm the water to 80*F if you can. Gradually though. 2*F per hour.

Problem is, I can't use a heater in the rubbermaid...

The temp in the tub right now is 75F.

Nope, I haven't done any more dips. I figured she'd need a break after "The Big One"!

She is salted to 0.3% right now.

Well, that is not quite true. What you can't allow to happen is for the heater to touch the plastic side and bottom. If you can support it probably and shield it from the plastic then it is fine to use a heater in the tub. In fact, you can get heater shield from petstores for exactly that purpose. 75*F is not too bad.

You might consider diluting the salt down to 0.15%. It will still de-stress her but might be a little easier on her.

I'll look into a heater when I go to work tomorrow, and see if I can't rig something up. I have a 50W heater, but it's the old-school kind that hangs on the side, and the wattage probably isn't high enough for 20 gallons. It wouldn't hurt to invest in a new one anyway!

I'll take the salt down a notch when I do her water change tomorrow.

Tonight she's acting the same, except... she won't eat. She gets all excited for food, and takes it in her mouth, but then spits it right back out. Then she'll forage for scraps on the bottom for a while, but never actually ingests the food. I don't know if it's because she doesn't like it or not, but she was eating it yesterday... ARGH!

Squeeker,

Whatever is affecting her might have done some damage to her gills. The food irritate them when she tries to eat. That could be why she is spits them out. Try feeding her live/frozen blood worms or live daphnia. They are small and more likely to pass through. Hopefully, that will tie her over the next few days while she recovers.

Well, she's eating again... but not nearly as ferociously as she was before. She continues to bloat more and more... and her slime coat still looks the same on her back.
I feel so bad for her... I don't know what else to do for her...

I'm so sorry to hear that. Are any of the scales standing up? Are you feeding her medicated food as suggested?

That's too bad. It sounds like she is getting worse.

I can make a suggestion, it's what I would do in the same situation but I'm not guaranteeing it will work. Over here we have limited medications and I have come to rely on triple sulpha medications for most serious illness. My success rate is pretty good, you may wish to give it a try.

In the treatment section there is a thread pinned about using triple sulpha, check it out and post back if you have any questions.

Annette,

I just might try that. We have TS at work, it comes in capsule form.

Thanks so much again!

Good luck Squeeker, keep us posted.

Had a good look at her tonight. Her slime coat seems to be gone!! Yay!! Whatever it was that was irritating her is either dead, or "fixed"...

Unfortunately, she seems to be pineconing more

Thing is, she is acting better. Her dorsal fin is not clamped nearly as often as it was before. She's still eating, and she's sporadically active, rooting around in the tank. She seems to rest for 15 minutes, then swim for 5.

I've got her salted to only 0.1% now. I'm going to pick up some tri-sulfa on tuesday, but I'm not sure yet if I'm going to use it. We'll see how she's doing.

About the water temperature: I haven't raised it yet. The loose scale on her side is still sorta filmy and fungusy looking, and I thought I read somewhere that heat increases its growth? If I'm completely wrong on this, please let me know and I'll get the heater on Tuesday as well.

Thanks!

I'm glad her slime has gone away but if she is pineconing I would still treat her with some type antibacterial water medication. It seems the medicated food alone is slow acting so something in the water may boost her chance to kick this infection.

I didn't use heat when I used TS. The water was at room temperature around 18-20 degrees celcious (64-68F).

What a strange fish I have.

Today, she's acting like nothing's wrong. Dorsal fin is high, she's active as a fry, eating, begging, exploring, not bottom sitting at all.

But she looks HORRIBLE. The pineconing is at its worst yet. Her pulled scale is still cottony. She still has slight streaks in her tail.

The only reason I'm leary about using any more meds is because she's acting so good! Honestly, if she weren't pineconed, I'd throw her back in the main tank! I don't want to throw something else in there and have her stress out... I'm going to buy the TS tonight, regardless, but what do you all think? What's going on with her?

I couldn't get good pics cuz she wouldn't stay STILL!

The pulled scale is circled.

Here she is, acting like her old self. If it weren't for the veiny, frayed fins, and the bloat, she'd be normal.

She says "Thanks for helping me get better!"

I'm sorry squeeker, I wish I can be more positive and say that she is fine but unfortunately, it is a really crazy "side effect" of dropsy that the fish itself doesn't seem to know that it is in dire strait and can act, for all intention, like a perfectly normal fish. It is bizarre but that's what happens. From your pic, it sure looks like dropsy to me.

BTW, the scale does look like it got fungus or mould on it so it would be best to remove it. Make sure you clean the wound with iodine afterwards or it can form a secondary infection which you don't need.

Oh, I know it's dropsy... I was just sort of hoping that someone would say that she's getting better and that's why she's acting like that.

So, you think I should try the TS?

OY. How should I do that? Tweezers, and pull it back towards her tail in the direction of growth? Heh, Just like plucking eyebrows?

I don't have iodine. How about hydrogen peroxide and polysporin?

Should I expect pus or blood? If I do, should I try to flush the pus out?