PLEASE SOMEONE HELP ME! MY 18 INCH WHITE KOI RAN INTO A LARGE LAVA ROCK IN THE POND, IT HAPPENED WHEN I WAS NETTING ANOTHER FISH THAT WAS MOVING TO A BETTER POND. AT FIRST I THOUGHT HE WOULD HEAL ON HIS OWN. AFTER ABOUT A WEEK I NOTICED HE WAS'NT ACTING AS LIVELY AS BEFORE. I NETTED HIM AND PUT HIM IN A 20 GALLON TANK. I TOOK SPONGES FROM MY AQUARIUM AND ONE FROM THE POND. WELL THE WATER QUALITY IS'NT SO GREAT A LITTLE NITRITE SHOWS. I WAS DOING TWO FIFTY PERCENT CHANGES EACH DAY. THE SALT IS AT 1 TABLESPOON PER GALLON. HE IS'NT EATING. THE WOUND IS REALLY BAD. IT DOES'NT LOOK INFECTED. I THINK WHEN I NETTED I MADE IT WORSE. IT APPEARS TO HAVE RAWNESS UNDER THE SCALES AROUND THE WOUND WHICH IS ABOUT THE SIZE OF A QUARTER OR MAYBE A LITTLE LARGER. ALOT OF SCALES SLOUGHED OFF IN THE TANK WHERE I THINK THE NET GRABBED THEM.THER IS NO AMMONIA IN THE WATER. HE IS NOW IN A 30 GALLON TANK FROM THE ATTIC. I AM ALSO USING MELAFIX HAVE BEEN FOR 3 DAYS. DOES ANYONE KNOW OF ANYTHING ELSE I CAN DO. HE ALSO INJURED HIS NOSE. ALSO HIS TAIL HAS REDNESS THROUGHOUT IT. I AM SO WORRIED..... I DID'NT REALIZE HOW BAD THE INJURY WAS UNTIL HE CAME OUT OF THE POND. I FEEL SO BAD.... THANK YOU MARY

Hi Mary

Firstly, if you could, upon your next posting, could you not use all capitols? Its a little irritating to read..... thanks



Well, there are several things you can do for him to help expedite the healing process. But first, I believe you are going to need to use a much larger bin to make this work. I suggest that you use a rubbermaid-type storage bin In the realm of 50 gallons. This bin will still need to have large daily waterchanges but a little different approach will be used:


Use your filter from the twenty gallon on the 50 gallon bin but DO NOT let it cycle in any way. It will need very regular scrubbing/rinsings to keep it from doing so. Remove any carbon that may be in the cartridges. Take some gravel-vac bags or media-bags and fill them with ammo-chips (zeolite). Place the bags of zeolite in every available area in the filter. You can even leave them sitting on the bottom fo the bin. This will effectivly remove any ammonia that can buid-up between daily waterchanges. Test morning and night for ammonia to be sure.

Keeping the water quality perfect is sometimes enough for the fish to heal itself. But, they often need a little boost before this can happen. I suggest doing the following for treatment:


Hydrogen peroxide swabbing of the wound for several days. Swab the sore very well for the first one or two swabbings. Avoid the gills and eyeballs. You might need to use a towel, to make holding the fish steady, easier....

If you can get the fish to eat, feed a medicated food such as medi-koi, from http://www.pondrx.com/store/customer/home.php?cat=3

Other than that, a slight salt solution of 0.1% doesn't hurt.


Melafix is ok to use at this point but if it doesn't reap you any results within 3 days, I suggest that you try a waterborne antibiotic such as a furan based drug OR a sulfa based drug OR maracyn 1 and 2.

Then, theres always the best route to go for fish that are off their food, an injection of anamycin or baytril that would be available through a vet.


I hope this helps some. post back soon.


Paul

I forgot to add that you should remove the lavarock so that this doesn't happen again....

Great advice there, Paul - as usual! Although one thing - holding a koi in your hand, especially one that is 18 inches long, for any topical treatment, isn't gonna happen. Those guys splash and twist around so badly, its possible you do more harm to the wound than good.

The only way that koi keepers treat big fish like this is sedating them with glove of oil? (gosh, the spelling! ), and then treat the fish. That way its also so much better to inspect the wound, just so much more time for it like that.
A very good other way for topical treatment is PP (Potassium permanganate), preferably in its pure crystal form. You need to wear gloves for that one though, and rub it into the fish's wound. It stains the area around the wound in a pretty purple, but that will go way over the course of a few days. I have seen badly injured koi within a week to 14 days go back to perfect health, that it was hard for the eye to even see where the wound was.
Good luck with the "baby"...

Hah! yeah, I didn't quite think that one through there. I guess it would be pretty tough to swab a fully flapping koi..... Sedation is preferrable. Clove oil or a commercial product like Finquel from pondrx.com works great!


the PP ranchugirl suggested is the best stuff to use for the first swabbing, cleaning. Its generally not recommended to use pp paste more than once (twice, max).


Thanks Andrea!

Thank you everyone for responding so quickly. my water quality has improved showing zero nitrites and zero ammonia. Whitey is still in a 30 gallon tank. I added another filter with a established sponge. he is now eating again. the wound appears not so red and sore. I am using less salt also. There are three filters running and an air stone. I am still using melafix. I used peroxide yesterday when he went to the 30 gallon tank. I just poured some on the wound. He is a big strong fish and will be unable to swab him. Besides, I would probably kill him sedating him. Paul of there is an improvement, can i get away with not using maracyn? i've heard that will ruin the water quality. would melafix and salt be enough?maybe? thank you mary

Absolutely. The maracyn1 and 2 is more for if the sore doesn't respond to swabbings and excellent water quality or the infection goes systemic.

I believe that since you got the water quality under control, he will begn to heal up for you. Just keep everything nice and stable for him......

Any change in the sore at all?

Has he attempted to eat yet? Try an irrististable treat to get him going, if not.



Post back soon.


Paul

Hi Paul, Yes he started eating yesterday, he only will eat prime reef flakes. he won't eat his normal pelets or brine shrimp. I am glad he will eat something. I am sure I will have more questions soon. One question now is, as soon as I am sure he is on the road to recovery could he go back to the pond? He lives in it all winter and living in Bend,Oregon towards the middle of october the net goes on the pond and they begin the winter life. no food, and no activity. Would he continue to heal in really coldwater? I could take out the pond plants now and add salt to the pond. The pond is 150 gallons with whitey 18 inches and three others between three and six inches. would he be better off in the pond since the water is perfect. maybe I should wait awhile I dont know. Should he be completely healed first? what would you do? Thanks again Mary Oh i almost forgot the sore seems better not so red I think it's better I'll let you know when I am sure, thanks

I think over-wintering him is going to be dictated by his rate of healing. Generally, fish going into winter with sores or ulcers do not heal well.

That is good that he is eating.

As long as you can keep the water in his tank pristine, I think it would be best to keep him in isolation for a day or two more, at least. But, that too should be dictated by how his sore is doing.

How is the sore doing, anyway? See any fungus or swelling or inflamation?


Paul

Dear Paul, okay it is now day seven and whitey is'nt eating again. I tested the water and everything is fine. I am doing a 50 percent change daily. I have been using melafix and salt everyday. the initial wound looks better but now he has more red areas on his body. I got some primafix yesterday and added that too. Today I noticed he went crazy when I drove into the garage so I am thinking he reinjured himself causing the new damaged areas. He did the same thing yesterday. I went in really slow today but it still spooked him. I will cover the aquarium when I leave from now on. My question is, Is there any medication out there that will heal him faster? The owner of the pet shop said that it could take a month to fully heal. Is using melafix plus primafix and salt too much? I have fungus cure by jungle it says it's for bacterial diseases too. what do you think? I think the fish is lonely. i've had him for ten years. he misses his friends in the pond. Thanks Mary

What exactly did Paul think this fish had? Your water parameters are good?

I wouldn't use all 3 - salt, melafix and primafix. I would use either melafix or primafix and if you want to salt. But, that's just what I think and others may advise differently.

Hi Mary,
From the title this is a nishikigoi? Do you have a pic you can upload? Run me through the symptoms and jot up the water params!

While the mela fix is a fair product, its like useing neo sporin, you still have to treat any wounds first. The prima is a bit stout and some fish have bad reactions to it.

Has the fish been doing any excess scratching and rubbing against things?

Ulcers are not fun, but for treatment you can do one of several things. Iodine (or betadine) swab: do not get any in the mouth,eye's or gills. Clean the ulcer very well, pull loose scales and trim any frayed skin. Using Q-tips, clean with peroxide, then paint with iodine. If you've pulled scales, get into the scale pocket. If the scale is loose enough to get under it, do so. Then spray the powder on the ulcer and overlap a bit into good skin. If you get the tip of the bottle wet, you will need a safety pin or something similar to open the hole again. At this point, if you have the ticture of benzoin, spray with that as a final sealer. If not, then just return the fish to the pond. The powdered adhesive will get sticky, forming a bond that will last about 3-5 days in the pond before wearing off. It keeps the med in and the water out during that period, allowing the fish a chance to heal.
Tincture of Benzoin in a spray container.

Tinture of Benzoin is gotten from a pharmacy and Extra hold fixadent is what is recomended.

Or, you can get tricide neo through pond RX: http://www.pondrx.com/store/customer/home.php

I would also do a round of medicated food to get the antibiotics inside the koi. Also, since you have him in a tank, try putting a dark towel around three sides. The tank being so open is stressful.

Guys, I think its the same fish that got injured in the pond a few days ago. Its in a different link, so I better put those two together to see the background on the fish much better....

Awesome advice, Tamianth!


I guess this thread slipped down the list one day. I must have missed it...


Is this other thread in the pond section? Guess I need to go check.

No, it was right here in the emergency section, Paul. They are both combined now in this thread, having the title of the first thread "Giant Koi slammed...."

Oh. Okay.

Well, I apoalgize for not responding further but I believe you have been recienving top notch advice all around...




Hows it going lately?

Hello everyone. Well I have now used maracyn 2 for 7 days then switched to furan 2 for 6 days, no improvement yet. I also got potassium permagrate from Ricks goldfish and medigold. whitey has not eaten for 2 weeks. I dipped him for 30 minutes yesterday at 1 teaspoon in 5 gallons. I am now using tank buddies for the last 2 days. the ammonia level is at 1.0 to 2.0. and now as of today I put in c-100 ammonia pillows enough for 60 gallons . I have been doing 100 percent water changes morning and night. It is costing a fortune for medication I have now spent seventy five dollars. I am lost. his mouth got alot worse, his fins have damage his body has more red looking wounds. the medication isn't helping so far. he hasn't gotten worse the last week but not better either. I have taken all of the sponges out of the pond filter and the bubble eye goldfish tank I can. Now I am doing large changes everyday in the other tank. the medication is killing all of the bacteria in the sponges. He really thrashed around when I netted him for the dip, I won't be able to take him out and cut off scales and do surgery on him. he is really a big fish, I am afraid to do it. anyway around his mouth started to get white fungus that is why I switched to fungus tank buddies it says it is for everything, bacterial and fungus. also, my vet might give me baytril. I think I could handle giving shots. Should I dip him again? Also, there was a white thin layer of tissue over the actual wound that went away and left the area raw but now looks kind of maybe brownish? It appears there could be some fungus growing but I can't tell. The area around the wound is still quite bad. I hope he survives. Any suggestions? thank you mary

Yes, I would think injections are what he needs right now. Baytril is good. Amikacin too. They are certainly a sure fire way to get anti's IN him............


Ammonia that is rising should be detoxified. Remember, Prime or Amquel plus can and will keep it at bay even though you may read 3ppm or even higher. Ammo-lock works too, but can serve false readings on some ammonia kits. If you dose as per the instructions and the results from prime or amquel plus, your sure the ammonia will be safe. Detoxifiers are the way to go.


I hope he pulls through for you.....


Paul

Hi Paul , Okay he is about sixteen inches long. how much baytril will I need. I have birds also and have given injections of baytril before. I will go to the vet tomorrow and I will buy the ammo-lock. it's all I have seen in the stores. Should I keep the ammonia pillows in the filters? also, where would I give the shot? I would assume in the side but really have no idea. Should I take him off the jungle tabs for fungus and bacteria? thanks again, mary

Baytril should be administered at about 0.5- 0.7 milliliters for a 14-18 inch fish. You can administer one shot daily for 3 days. Then every other day for a total of 3-4 days.

http://www.lonestarkoi.com/Articles/needles.html

http://www.akca.org/library/inject.htm

http://fishdoc.net/treatments/injections.htm

I hope this helps.

Dear Paul, Okay the vet never called the receptionist said he probably give me the baytril anyay. I dipped him again with the potassium promagate at one teaspoon per five gallons for 25 minutes. I took him off tank buddies and went back to maracyn 2 and maroxy and salt. I guess that what I have read it must work better. He still has alot of fight in him I am not ready to give up yet. Would it help to double dose the maracyn 2? I did a 100% water change when I switched back to the maracyn. How often should I dip him? Maybe I shouldn't at all, I don't know what to do really. I've had him for 10 years and I love him. I am now willing to try sedation and put iodine on him, but the infection is systemic now.This is all my fault I should have known not to cover their summer house with a lava rock. I can't believe there is no such thing as a fish vet. I wish there was he would be in the hospital. I am sorry to be such a pain in the gill but I don't know what to do now. If you have any suggestions please let me know. Thanks again mary Oh yeah i got the ammo lock and used that too.

I would be kindly pleading for the baytril so that you can get the first injection in him. Your going to need enough for at least 3 injections. More if possible.

Believe it or not, Vets have ALL of the diagnostic tools and knowhow right there in the office. They just choose NOT to treat fish. Treating fish, if i'm not mistaken is a part of their schooling. Maybe not a large part, but they still go through the basics.

I have heard of people bringing a list of webpages, links, books and newsletters to their longtime vets and getting diagnosis and treatments very easily. A microscope and culture/sensitivity lab is really the base of it all.

When a culture/sensitivity is done with any animal, it becomes very clear as to what bacterias are resposible and what will kill them most effectively.


Anyway, good luk and I hope those injections come through for you soon.


Paul

Update on Whitey, I put him to sleep today. I got the clove oil and took the tank water down to 10 gallons.I put in 30 milligrams of the clove oil with a little vodka , shook till it turned milkly and put it in the tank. His death was awful! he did'nt go peacefully at all. He was thrashing around violently and then stopped. through my tears I could see his gills were bleeding. I know he was in agony. if I knew how horrible it would be I never would have done it.I will never humanely kill a fish again. Now all I will remember is his death. Well anyway, thank you everyone for trying to help me. Oh I forgot,my husband had to take him out and physically kill him. After 10 minutes of torture Whitey was still alive. It was the absolute worse thing I have ever seen. Sincerely, mary Oh and my wonderful vet that has always taken care of our animals for the last 18 years never even bothered to call me. we are changing vets. He gave me baytril for my birds. I guess he figured what? just a dumb fish anyway.I can't believe how sad I am. I just need to remember all of the fish I have saved from the petstores and have given away to friends with ponds. thanks again mary

I am so, so sorry to hear how things panned out. How aweful.

I wish there were something I could say or do......


I am truly sorry you went through that.


Paul

Dear Paul You are a realy nice person. You should have been a vet. Maybe you are. Your thoughtful note made me feel better. thank you mary

I hope all goes well for the rest of your fish. If you ever have any questions about anything, dont hesitate to ask, we will be here if you need us..........

Dear Paul. About a week after whiteys death I stopped at petco and they just got new koi in. I said to the clerk "It's kind of late in the season to be getting koi in is'nt it? His reply was"Oh yea, they will sit here for at least a few weeks. On that, I bought another white koi named Junior. I felt alot better knowing I probably saved him from god only knows what. It's been really warm this fall and the pond is still going. soon, they will all go to sleep for the winter. This will be the first year out of ten that Whitey won't be there but Junior will be. I sure was attached to him. Thanks again for being so kind mary

Your/Whitey's story really hit me in the heart. I am so truly sorry you had to go through that, I would probably be traumatized honestly. I hope that you feel better soon.

Mary I'm so sorry to read this! Had I realized you where so close to me I could have helped you more with the fish! I feel badly as I assumed everything was under control.

Paul wouldn't have known either or he could have pm'd or email'd me. For furture reference, I live in Idanha, just two hours away. I'm also a moderator @ Koivet and have a scope also.

I'm so sorry Mary - it was like a punch in the heart to read this thread. Whitey

I know if I had koi and Kathy lived closeby, I'd have her on speed-dial