Happygoldfish and everyone else who's helped us, this is just a brief Gilbert update. I've been reading with interest other pet owners here who have moors with white patches and heavy slime. Really difficult to determine what this is! Anyway-

I put the poor little guy through 4 complete courses of bacti-bath (did I say that before?) He was not terribly stressed by the rise in ammonia this time because I used a double dose of prime and also some ammo-lock. And the medicine involves almost daily water changes. He has also been on the medigold for nearly three weeks.

From what I can see, the medigold is doing nothing for his eyes, which are still a bit puffy, cloudy and wobbly. The right eye is still a lot bigger than the left. No other traces of anything like dropsy, thank goodness. Other than slight twitchiness from ( I think) the crash of the biofilter, he's been behaving fine - swimming with his fins out and hungry. Today, about five days after the last dose of bacti-bath, I noticed a small white spot on his tail. These spots look sunken, if anything, rather than raised. His color is a bit dull looking, but his scales are clearly visible.

I wasn't able to get a look at his gills, Happygoldfish. I did try - on Thursday or Friday, during his water change, I put him in his bucket , took him out,and dabbed him gently with a cotton ball soaked in iodine. This did seem to help the white on his back in front of his head. But he fought so hard, and he's so little, that I was terrified of hurting him and didn't press my luck with his gills. When I got him back in the main tank, I saw white stuff lifting off his dorsal. It looked like bits of cobweb. His slime coat felt heavy and very sticky, but I don't know what's normal. My questions: (1) It's true his symptoms seem to respond to antibiotics more than anything else - but could he still, after all the meds he's been on, have an underlying parasite problem? If so, what could it be, and what, if anything, should I try next?
(2) Also, is it possible whatever he's got feeds on light? I noticed that the white patches vanished most quickly with the bacti-bath and the pp, and both times I covered the tank so as not to deactivate the med.

As for the tears in his fins, I'm not panicking, since I'm sure that was the silk plant. Well, almost sure. His fins seem to be healing nicely.

His parameters now: ammonia about 0.5; nitrites zero, nitrates pretty low; ph about 7.5 when last measured, temp near 78 degrees fahrenheit.

Thanks, as always, for your help with him!

Gilbert's better!
Thank You GOD. So glad to hear he's better, keep up the good work.

Mary, I would suggest you gently "scrub" the areas rather than just dab them. From the way it's responded to meds, the white patches are certainly bacterial, so it's best to try to remove as much of the white stuff as you can. Are you able to remove any of the white stuff at all? If you are, does the area beneath look damaged? I remember before you said it didn't, but I don't recall you ever describing the white areas as "sunken in". It seems if they were depressed, the area beneath them would have to be damaged.

Do you know if Gilbert's slimecoat was heavy prior to the crash of the biofilter? How high have the ammonia levels been at their highest, and have you added anything (like AmmoLock) to bind it?

Heavy slimecoats can be due to poor water, usually water with high ammonia. If the ammonia hasn't been above 0.5, though, I'm not sure I'd assume this was the cause of the excessive slime.

It is possible a parasite could be the root cause of the eternal white patches, though of course without a biopsy we can't say for sure. If a parasite was present, PP and antibac bath could get rid of the bacterial infections that were present at the time, but once the meds stop, the area damaged by the parasites is once again open to opportunistic infection and the white patches would reappear. Certainly does sound like what's happening with poor little Gilbert, doesn't it? If a parasite is present, it could be nearly anything, though it probably isn't flukes since you have already treated him with Prazi. (How many treatments did you give him, and how many days apart?) The PP also could have had some effect on the parasites if the doseage was high enough. If you could manage to get a look at his gills it might help us determine which parasite(s) it could likely be.

I would assume that the reason the white patches seemed to go away quicker when the tank was covered was because the antibacterial meds were more effective (and the white stuff does seem to be bacterial, regardless of whether or not it is enabled by a parasitic infection), not because we're dealing with a parasite that is able to utilize light as an energy source.

If you want to try treating for parasites to see if they might be the problem, 0.6% salt (I don't recall if you ever had it up to that concentration) would take care of Chilodinella and maybe (but not reliably from my experience) Costia and Trich. If you've already tried 0.6% salt or are just wanting to go ahead and use something stronger and more "guaranteed", Proform C (formalin/malachite green) would be an excellent med. I use Proform C or my own Formalin/Malachite Green solutions with nearly all new arrivals and can tell you that all but the *very* weak fish handle even high levels of F and MG *very* well. Proform C is a relatively low concentration of both meds that is dosed as a continuous bath, and I haven't lost any fish yet with it's use.

Good luck to you and Gilbert.

Some very quick answers: Happygoldfish, I think his slime coat was heavy before the filter crashed; it looked a bit dull and seemed to be covering the tops of his eyes. This has been one of his chronic symptoms. But I'm not at all sure it's generally been as heavy as it was last week. I'm sure the water quality (or lack of it) affected him.

The ammonia did go up to 2 ppm on this medication (the main reason I'm averse to putting him back on it). The first time he was very stressed and twitchy, but this time I kept checking the ammonia and adding prime and ammo-lock 2, so I don't think it was quite so harsh on him.

When I dabbed his back, I think I did get some of the stuff off. The skin there (where it lifted off) looks darker black than the rest of his back and dorsal. I don't see any red patches, and I did expect to.

As of yesterday, there was no ammonia in the water, and his back (behind his head) seems to be improving. I still have him on the medigold. I'm going to keep him on that for a few more days (4 weeks total) and keep the water as clean as I can. His poor eye still looks terrible, but he can see and it doesn't seem to bother him. When I look at him in the water, his gills seem a little pale, but I know I haven't really examined them properly. He's breathing fairly quickly, but normally as far as I can see. Still gulps bubbles every time he eats - he's done that all his life with me.

I'm not going to put him on any other meds for now, but will keep an eye on him. I'll post again in a few days and let you know how he gets on (I'm thinking of buying a microscope!)

Thanks as always for your help. )

If you could ever manage to get a peek at his gills that would be helpful. If you want to buy a microscope that'd be great. If it's not really in your budget right now, you could try getting a vet to help you out instead. If you explain the situation I'm sure you could find one willing to help you with a biopsy. You would have to take Gilbert in to the office, since most things don't last too long on a slide. Even if the vet knows nothing about fish, the microscope work will be of value. If you do this, make it worth your while and get a gill scrape as well as a scrape of the white patches. Look for anything moving (lower light levels help with seeing some parasites), and note what you see, how large it is and at what power you saw it. There are various online resources to help you determine what you see - do a bit of research before you try a biopsy (whether you do it at home or the vet's) and if you have any questions afterwards I can help you out, too.