Hello all, this is my first post

I've bred goldfish in my pond a couple of times before, and usually it involves rescuing just a few eggs from the other hungry Goldfish, Koi, Orfes, Tench and Rudd. Nonetheless this rather haphazard method has resulted in some very beautiful (now adult) goldfish. Out of 4 that survived to adulthood in the first year (2001) and 7 from the second year (2002 - from only 13 fry) all but one have gone bright red/orange/white/cream/slight pink with ever-so-slight shubunkin pattern. A couple of the parents from the first year have since died,although they were at least 15 years old, possibly more as they were given to us over 10 years ago, but the mother in this years batch is probably 17 years old - and she mated 3 times this summer.

Anyway, I digress. We got 86 fry from one mating session. The parents were all either common goldfish, comet goldfish or halfway in between the two - there was probably some in-breeding going on with the offspring from previous years as well. Only one comet was a new fish bought elsewhere. Looking at the fry when they first hatched I noticed one had a slightly different tail - from above it resembled the "tail" of an arrow. I suspected this might be a mutation, and as it has grown the finnage has really developed. It looks like it has double anal, pelvic fins and tail fin - which is becoming quite large. I gather this would be a description of a Wakin? Although it's body is more slender like a common or a comet but I guess this could develop in due course.

I was wondering if the wakin mutation is quite common from common/comet goldfish, and if it is usually so developed so quickly - my fry are not even a month old. The wakin fry is also one of the larger, if not largest of the fry. It waddles a bit, but seems a strong swimmer, and the fins are not asymetrical, nor does it have any problems.

If I can sort my camera out I'll try and post a few pics.

Thanks in advance for any replies.



Darth

I havent a clue, but i sure would love to see a pics of it from all angles please.

I have a ton of wakin pictures, but on my other computer, which is occupied by a 14 year old playing games with her friends. For the safety of my own life, I'd rather not interrupt!

It could be possible, Darth - a wakin seems to be a cross between a sleak bodied fish like a comet/common and something with more of a fan or butterfly tail. After all, a lot of our commonly known goldfish come from those kind of mutations, and got further developed.

No worries about the pictures. Since Sandy has requested them I'll try and sort my own out tomorrow. The digital camera is used by the whole family so I need to get other peoples pics off the now full memory card first before I can take any of the fish. Unfortunately I don't have any pics of the fry yet (although I do of previous years) but I'll draw a diagram of the wakin fry/fins since I can remember it. It's a digital video camera rather than a small handheld one so id a bit cumbersome to use, but once setup is fantastic for wildlife photos.

I thought, since maybe the common/comets I had were carrying the mutation (perhaps some were non-mutated offspring of fantails or even wakin), that I was just lucky with what has appeared. I've had the usual slight mishaped backs or kinked tails in fry before, but never something so distinctive as this.

I'm just surprised that you don't see more wakins here in the UK or the US. I know they're now being imported more regularly, but if fancy and comet goldfish are bred here and the states, seems strange that wakins aren't. Although that does make me feel very lucky to get a mutation like this.

Oh, they are coming, I am sure. I remember an earlier goldfish show I attended years ago, and a friend of mine was always the only one who brought his wakin. Since about a year, there ar six or seven wakin at any given show, so thats an improvement. I think people come to recognize what awesome pondfish those wakin make...

Thanks very much Koko,

I wanted to get a few more from different angles, but he wasn't exactly cooperative - those were the best from many attempts. I would also like to show more of him and the other fry in their tank, but it's too murky for photos at the moment as I've kept the filter on low flow rate until they're a bit bigger.

Wow! very cool! Surely a double-tailed fry! I'd love to see its development. congrats darth pansy!

That indeed looks very similar to a wakin tail! That is how those other mutations have come to exist, I guess - a few fish with slightly different shape or color in a whole bunch of normal fish!
There is a really good example of a wakin, thanks to Betty from Wakinworld. A great picture to compare tails with.... Wakin tails aren't completely butterflied, and not completely horizontal, they go down in a gentle slope....

oh dear, sad news

I've had a couple of the babies struggle and normally these weaker ones die quickly when I'm not around and float or dissappear in the filter or something. If I find one that seems to just have a bit of a swim bladder problem, I put it in a small plastic tub with shallow water from the tank, add some of the basic medication stuff I have and hope for the best. This has rescued a couple of fry this time that are now quite happy. I think they're too fragile when that young to much around with them anymore. So today I get back from work, and the Wakin is floating/struggling to stay right way up. Obvious swim bladder problem. I gave him the treatment mentioned above, and although he seemed to be a bit more comfortable, he was dead a few hours later.

He wasn't the strongest swimmer of the fry but I was hoping his mutation didn't affect his swim bladder, but it looks like it did. Might take a photo, at least for checking the mutation - he seems to have single anal and pelvic fins, just a double tail fin.



I've still got 30 odd fry left, so I'll post some more pics of them as they get bigger. I was really looking forward to this one developing, something different to what is fast becoming a pond full of one army of white goldfish and one army of red ones, so maybe I might get a few different colours this year!

If anyone lives in Croydon/South London UK, then I'll probably have some spare red and/or white goldfish in 6 months to a years time! hehe

Thanks for advice from everyone. Now I know my fish can produce a double tail, I ###### well expect them to again!

I'm sorry to hear that! Sometimes fish raising can lead to heartbreak. I hope the rest of it goes well.

it's survival of the fittest...I am sadden that you lost that one fry. I hope the rest will pull through for you

Oh, you lost the wakin fry! That would have been some looker, once he would have gotten bigger...
There is a International-UK section here on the board, maybe if you post there about your fish, you'll find somebody who lives in your area and would love to have some...

Thought I'd give another update, since I hadn't said anything for a while, if anyone's still interested.

Well, sadly, a few weeks after the wakin fry died, a whole load (about 10 from the remaining 20) of fry died after a water change. Although it was only a partial change using good pond water, I think there were too many things unsettling the poor guys. The only filter I have that isn't too strong that it sucks up all the fry, was really clogged up, that and a bit of direct sun caught the tank as the sun got lower in autumn. But I think I may have brought a disease in from the pond (a couple of new fish in the pond may have been the source, although all the pond fish were fine).

As the next few weeks progressed, I lost all the fry bar 2, one of whom really looked like he was on his last fins. With a bit of luck and care they recovered, but when similar problems occured a few weeks ago, the treatment didn't work and they died (possibly too much treatment). So sadly, no fry this year....



....or so I thought.


A few days ago, my black moor was chasing my Lionhead/Ranchu I have in a 16 gal tank. Now, he's been frisky for years, with permanent mating stars, and quite an aggressive nature (first time I've seen that in a black moor), but the female was never too keen. In fact when there was a male comet with them when in a much smaller tank, she sometimes got really badly bruised and fin damage. Anyway, she finally decided to mate, much to my surprise, and given that I had a lot of plants/ornaments in the tank for the eggs to lay on, I've got probably over a 1000 eggs out into another tank. Heck!?! And at least half are fertilized. If I can steady the filter this time, I'm gonna have to start selling/giving them away. After last time, though, fingers crossed.

Adding two smll filters to my Biorb tank really seemed to clear up the tnak perfectly, and I think the improved conditions started them off.

I'll start a new thread with photos - am going to try and photo the eggs - this may be difficult. Also, I haven't posted enough (given the length of this one I maybe some time) yet to post my own pics so have to send them - so will do that all in one go with lots of pics.


So anyone know what the usual results are from a black moor/ranchu mating? I might end up with another wakin?


And thanks for everyone's help the first! Plus the help on the site has been useful this time around.


Darth

Wow congrats! moor & ranchu fries! more than likely they gonna have double-tails, but dunno how the body shape gonna be i'll be waiting for updates in great eagerness!

Sad news followed by good news! Good luck with all those eggs!