Hiya.


I have noticed a trend as of recently regarding diagnosis of sick goldfish here in the disease and 911 forums. I feel that microscopic parasites are not being given thier due. Costia, chilodonella, trichodina, epystylus and flukes round the list out. I am not concentrating on the visible parasites because they are easy to diagnose and purge.

I feel that it is a safe assumption to say that parasites are the number one cause for sick goldfish. Poor water quality comes in a very close second. New fish or new fish added to tanks with healthy fish are really the main scope of this assumption. This can be easily explained with three words, "Pet Shop Tanks". Pet shop tanks are just littered with parasites. Luckily, for those of us that have a local fish shop with some well informed keepers, they will have medicated from time to time to take care of ich argulus, anchor worm and hopefullly flukes (this is easily done with parasite clear and/or ich clear). Its the ciliated protozoans and flagellates that are the REAL headache.


Okay on to how I think we can help curb misdiagnosis:


If the person requesting help does not mention anything about flashing, scratching, rapid fin shaking, yawning or spitting of food, These questions need to be addressed before any diagnosis should be made:

Any rapid fin shaking or clamping (anal, pelvic and dorsal)?

Any scratching on gravel, ornaments or glass?

Any excessive yawning (more than once in a great while)?

If you get a yes to any of these, you can pretty much bet that parasites are the source of the problem. I know that parameter spikes are said to cause flashing but this is a rather rare occurance and is most likely linked to parasites anyway. Our fish can and will live quite a long while without showing any outward sign of infection. All it takes is the params to go a little screwy, wich causes stress in the fish, thus lowered immune reactions and the bugs get their foot in the door. The bugs cause scratching and then the params are blamed. Simple mistake.


I think it should be noted that salt, praziquantel and dimilin used together makes for the very best parasite treatment you can get. Together, used during quarentine, you will be assured of killing off most parasites (except cases of salt resistant costia chilodonella and trichodina) that the new fish might have. All three are VERY safe to use too!

Dimilin is for ergasilus, lernea and argulus.
Salt is for ciliated parasites (ich, costia, chilodonella, trichodina and epystilus).
Prazi kills flukes dead.

For microscopic parasites, Salt should be suggested first. If after 2 weeks there is no improvement, then flukes are to be suspected and treated for. After Prazi has been through the tank, you know flukes are out of the equation. Of course, the visible parasites are killed with dimilin (unless it's ich, then salt doeas the trick).

Diagnosis of microscopic parasites can be done rather easily with a cheapo beginners microscope. I know it's a rarity in todays household but it is VERY WELL worth mentioning anyway. That way, getting a scrape and exam will leave no question as to the parasite/s and treatment. I very highly suggest that a microscope be sought for. Again, even a cheap scope could prove to be enough for diagnosis.


Hopefully, this helps explain a little bit. If this raises any questions with anyone, please ask away. I feel that you can never be too informed when it comes to curing our goldfish of what ails them.

Thanks for reading this loooong and boring post.

Paul

That's so helpful! I have no idea about parasites as I've never had fish affected by them. Thanks so much for the info!

read and noted, thanks paul

Thanks Paul, a concise guide to parasites and their treatments.

Fortunately, I have had very little experience with them (aside from those nasty fish lice), my main killers have been internal dropsy and septicimia related diseases.

In addition to quarintine, it sounds as though you recomend treating all newly acquired fish with praziquantel and dimilin. How long should you quarintine and salt and should you salt the main tank all the time?

I have a sick fish and have been salting with Doc Wellfish's Aquarium Salt, but the package does not indicate what type of salt it is. What are the brand names that contain praziquantel and dimilin? I do not recall seeing it at the pet store, do these usually need to be ordered on line?

Paul, thanks for posting that....good information!!! I don't think it was long and boring at all......you pointed out some plain and simple facts that I think we all over look at times....Thanks
Parasites that can't been seen are easy to over look well.....becuase they can't be seen...lol anyhow thanks agian I will keep that in mind.

Yes, I highly advocate treating ALL new arrivals from the pet store as though they are infected with multiple parasites. Of course, this should be done from the get go during quarentine (health permitting). I only suggest treating for microscopic parasites unless visible parasites ARE detected. Then, they need to be treated accordingly.

Visible parasites are: argulus (fish lice), lernea (anchor worm), ergasilus (gill maggot), ich and maybe the rare leech or something.

Microscopic parasites: flukes, chilodonella, costia, trichodina

There are actually several organisms that aren't really parasite, per say, that can be an important fish pathogen. Epistylus is one but rather harmless to aquarium fish. Tetrahymena is an organisms that is pretty commonly found in ponds and ditches. One of the more prevalent organisms worldwide. Anyway, it has the propensity to become a serious irritant to fish in small ecosystems like aquariums. It doesn't really do too much mechanical damage to the fish but the stress it causes from the irritation causes the fish to injur itself in the process of flashing or scratching. Tetrahymena can cause fish mortalities. Especially in fry.

Dimilin should only be used if you detect crustacean parasites like argulus, lernea and ergasilus. It will not kill the parasite. I will merely render the parasite sterile. You have to manually remove them during treatment until none are left.

Synonyms for dimilin; Diflbenzuron, Diflubenzuron, Largon , Micromite, Difluron

I do not recomend using dimiln from a source of multi-parasite cure if only lice oand the like are apparent. You cannot garuantee non-toxicity unless its pure dimilin.

Praziquantel (Prat-zee-kwan-tel) synonyms; Droncit, Drontal, Biltricide, Pyrantel pamoate

There is only one drug made for fish that contains praziquantel among other medications, Jungles Parasite clear. Jungles parasite clear also contains Dimilin (crustaceans) as well as a couple other drugs that kills off the other microscopic parasites other than flukes. It is probably the very best all-in-one parasite treatment you can buy. But I still preffer to make my own parasite eradicating cocktails because I control the dosages.

Doc wellfish's aquarium salt is perhaps the safest way to aquire salt for your tanks. But, I do not ever suggest to keep salt in any tank at all times. Some do, Some don't. I don't. I feel that using salt, permanently, renders its medicinal effects greatly lessened.

I hope this helps.

Paul

Hi,
I thought you might be interested to know that there is another medicine that contains praziquantel. It is Hikari Prazipro. It says--

The first Praziquantel treatment for flukes, tapeworm, flatworms and turellarians. This extremely effective formula will not negatively impact the biological filtration in your aquarium.
I saw it for sale oat Big Al's.
Have you ever used this product? Do you know how well it works?

Thanks,
Donna

Hi

prazi-pro works pretty well. However, it is a bit more expensive when you weigh the cost and the amount of water it treats. You also have to use it more frequently than if you were using pure praziquantel. but considering that nothing else kills flukes so effectively without harming the fish, prazi by any name is great!

Paul

That is very helpful information.
I have a small black moore that is patially white, very pretty.
I have had it for a month now in a 3 ft tank(117lt) with 3 other small gold fish and 9 other small tetras (zebras).
I have 2 small real plants and 4 plastic.
The black more hangs around the surface alot and looks weak as the current from my filter (EHEIM) pushes it around the top of the water even at its lowest current.
With the flurecent light on i can see these tiny white short fine string things practically all over its body.
I was wondering if this was flukes?
I have seen white spot before in my previous experience with black moores and this doesnt seem to be the case.
I tried salt bathing 3% per litre for about 30sec and no change.
I also added an anti-bacterial and anti-fungal formula (alive-o aqua remedy) to the tank and things havent seemed to change.
Do i take the black more out and treat it indiviually in a hospital tank?
No other fish seems affected and are acting normal, though i have seen a few scrap themselves on the stones on the bottom of the tank but i can seem to see anything on them (maybe microscopic?).
I change the water once every 1 1/2 weeks 25%.
The water PH is around mid 8 out of the tap but i add a little sodium biphosphate to make it a little more neutral.
I will be getting things from the pet shop that can help me read the ammonia and nitrate levels tomorrow.
I feed my fish flake food.
If you have any advice it would be greatly appreciated.
miz kez.

Hi miz kez and a big welcome from me

Just so you can get the attention you need, would you be able to post this here? Emergency section

I've linked it to a new thread and all you need to do is paste your information again - this way, more people will see it and help you quickly. It will be in the 911 section. This thread is more of an informational thread on best practice for diagnosing illness so it may get missed.

Hope this helps

Oooh Toothless! You're so good with these kind of things! Thank you for this! and welcome miz kez!

Very Nicely done and well said Toothy!

In regards, I might also add a few tips to some of these meds:

Prazi in its powder form does not mix well with tank/pond water,Otherwise a bit of warm water shaken well, it just takes time for the rest to dissolve. Or mix it with a bit of proform c if you have it on hand, and mind you, I had a hard time with this one also, but the alternative is hard liquor aka whisky, rum.... Conjures up the image of drunken little fishy's swimming hap-hazardly around with silly grins on there little fishy faces doesn't it?

Dimlin has a cousin: Lufenuron aka Program, this is purchased over the counter at the vets office.

From time to time we get a Koi in dire straights, the same rules apply only on a larger scale. More often the not, Ich _cannot_ be seen without a scope as compared to the highly visible ich we see with goldies.

Also the other alternative with a koi is superverm (Fluke), which _Cannot_ be used on goldfish period, it kills goldies within a three week time period after application..

Hi Paul, I have never been so excited about a post before! I have had a problem in my tanks for awhile now with what I thought was flukes. I have treated numerous times with Pond Prazi and continue to have a problem. I am sure I am not cross-contaminating my tanks. I bleach my Pythons and do different sets of tanks on different days so my hands don't contaminate.

Symptoms that made me suspect flukes-
-parameters all fine
-no visible parasites
-flashing GF and Tropicals (the Gold Barbs get redsores on their sides which clear up after treating with the Prazi)
-yawning and food spitting is in the GF but not sure if the frequency is enough to use as evidence
-last summer I treated a tank with the Prazi bec. I had 2 new young GF I was getting ready to put in my larger tanks. They bred without my knowledge and I just happened to move them out before all the eggs were eaten. When I was getting ready to tear down the tank I noticed fry- about 37. For 3 weeks everybody grew and then they started dying 1-2/day. Methylene Blue did nothing. I was afraid to try salt bec. I did not want to have an ammonia spike so I used Prazi. They stopped dying. I have 6 now that are almost 1 year.

Last time I treated my big tropical tank and my goldfish tank a few weeks ago I treated with the Pond Prazi (suppose to stay in the water for 7 days which I did), I did a 50% water change and put another dose back in so there was really more Prazi in the tanks then there should have been. I noticed flashing in my Barbs and one of my GK in the last 3 days. (I had removed all carbon of cours.)

Perhaps I have something that is sensitive to Prazi, but Prazi doesn't kill it dead. Everyone seems to think one dose works great. I will use the Parasite Clear if that is what you think will work best. I appreciate any help. I want to get this cleared up because I want more fish!!!!
Test Results for the Following:
Ammonia Level? NONE
Nitrite Level? NONE
Nitrate level? NOT TESTED
Ph Level, (If possible,KH and GH and chloramines)?ONLY PH-7.8
Ph Level out of the Tap 7.8 ish
Tank size (How many Gals) and How long has it been running? ALL TANKS ARE FULLY CYCLED AND GO FROM 20 TO 125 GAL.
What is the name and size of the filter/s? WHISPERS, AQUACLEARs, or A WET/DRY
How often do you change the water and how much? EVERY 7-10 DAYS 30-50% IN THE GF, EVERY 2-3 WEEKS 30% IN THE TROPICALS
How many fish in the tank and their size? 10 3-6 INCH GF in a 110 gal. THE REST LESS
What kind of water additives or conditioners? START RIGHT BY JUNGLE
Any medications added to the tank? ONLY PRAZI LATELY
Add any new fish to the tank? NOT SINCE SPRING '05
What do you feed your fish? PRO GOLD, TETRA MIN FLAKES, SPIRULINA FLAKES, SHRIMP PELLETS, PEAS, and FREEZE DRIED BLOODWORMS
Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt", bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? OCCASIONAL SORES ON BARBS THAT GO AWAY AFTER TREATMENT WITH PRAZI
Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, ect..? NO
ALL MY PLANTS ARE ARTIFICIAL AND I ONLY HAVE FISH.

Hi Paul, I have never been so excited about a post before! I have had a problem in my tanks for awhile now with what I thought was flukes. I have treated numerous times with Pond Prazi and continue to have a problem. I am sure I am not cross-contaminating my tanks. I bleach my Pythons and do different sets of tanks on different days so my hands don't contaminate.

Symptoms that made me suspect flukes-
-parameters all fine
-no visible parasites
-flashing GF and Tropicals (the Gold Barbs get redsores on their sides which clear up after treating with the Prazi)
-yawning and food spitting is in the GF but not sure if the frequency is enough to use as evidence
-last summer I treated a tank with the Prazi bec. I had 2 new young GF I was getting ready to put in my larger tanks. They bred without my knowledge and I just happened to move them out before all the eggs were eaten. When I was getting ready to tear down the tank I noticed fry- about 37. For 3 weeks everybody grew and then they started dying 1-2/day. Methylene Blue did nothing. I was afraid to try salt bec. I did not want to have an ammonia spike so I used Prazi. They stopped dying. I have 6 now that are almost 1 year.

Last time I treated my big tropical tank and my goldfish tank a few weeks ago I treated with the Pond Prazi (suppose to stay in the water for 7 days which I did), I did a 50% water change and put another dose back in so there was really more Prazi in the tanks then there should have been. I noticed flashing in my Barbs and one of my GK in the last 3 days. (I had removed all carbon of cours.)

Perhaps I have something that is sensitive to Prazi, but Prazi doesn't kill it dead. Everyone seems to think one dose works great. I will use the Parasite Clear if that is what you think will work best. I appreciate any help. I want to get this cleared up because I want more fish!!!!
Test Results for the Following:
Ammonia Level? NONE
Nitrite Level? NONE
Nitrate level? NOT TESTED
Ph Level, (If possible,KH and GH and chloramines)?ONLY PH-7.8
Ph Level out of the Tap 7.8 ish
Tank size (How many Gals) and How long has it been running? ALL TANKS ARE FULLY CYCLED AND GO FROM 20 TO 125 GAL.
What is the name and size of the filter/s? WHISPERS, AQUACLEARs, or A WET/DRY
How often do you change the water and how much? EVERY 7-10 DAYS 30-50% IN THE GF, EVERY 2-3 WEEKS 30% IN THE TROPICALS
How many fish in the tank and their size? 10 3-6 INCH GF in a 110 gal. THE REST LESS
What kind of water additives or conditioners? START RIGHT BY JUNGLE
Any medications added to the tank? ONLY PRAZI LATELY
Add any new fish to the tank? NOT SINCE SPRING '05
What do you feed your fish? PRO GOLD, TETRA MIN FLAKES, SPIRULINA FLAKES, SHRIMP PELLETS, PEAS, and FREEZE DRIED BLOODWORMS
Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt", bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? OCCASIONAL SORES ON BARBS THAT GO AWAY AFTER TREATMENT WITH PRAZI
Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, ect..? NO
ALL MY PLANTS ARE ARTIFICIAL AND I ONLY HAVE FISH.

Hi there.

Firstly, I must apolagize. I've been out of town and JUST saw this post. Secondly, you have come to the right place.


Okay, since you have another query here, I will give a short synopsis of my thoughts in my reply, then I will go look into your other thread.



It would help to know your nitrAte levels on a weekly basis. Otherwise, you dont TRULY know if you're changing enough water, often enough. You just can't know if your water quality is up to par or not. High nitrAtes are the leading cause of parasite "outbreaks" so I would advise that you watch the nitrAte levels throughout the upcoming treatment/s and beyond.

Prazi is NOT a one shot kill treatment, not for flukes anyway. The effectiveness of prazi in the water column is about 3-4 days at max. It can and does degrade once in solution. The reason Prazi should be dosed multiple times is simple. Dactylogyrus (gill flukes) are egg layers. Their eggs have an incubation period of between 3 and 5 days in an indoor aquarium. Gyrodactylus (skin flukes) give birth to live young that often have an embryo growing within and embryo growing within an embryo. In short, they (both types of fluke) can wait out a single dose of Prazi and bounce right back within two weeks. So, with both types of flukes, Prazi should be dosed 3 days apart for up to two weeks. This will dessimate any and all flukes within the water column (Barring re-infection).


I'll runover to your thread now. I hope this helps!

I'm new to the goldfish world (love it so far) I'm just not sure I'm a really great Mommy yet.
Q: What is flashing??
You seem to know plenty
Ariel

I don't know if toothless will be on for awhile, although he is DEFINTELY very knowledgable!

I shall try and answer this, although I am pretty new myself. by the way!

Flashing is when your fish dart around and kind of look like they are trying to shake something off of them, sometimes they rub themselves on ornaments or the bottom of the tank, basically just kind of freaking out...I think the name comes from the scales of the fish "flashing" in teh light when they make this movement? Not sure on that part though...

Thanks for the welcome and for the quick reply. I guess I still have some research to do, cuz my fish are definately flashing... but why... hmmmm...
weird orangey- red spots on some fins (haven't seen any explaination for that yet) and one of them is definately not floating right. (sitting on the bottom) In the process of fasting both of them and also added salt to their water this morning. Have no knowledge of nitrate levels etc...
Will wait for the 3rd day of fasting and start peas in their diet. Hope its all just a bout of constipation. Guess I'll learn fast.

I just finished reading some threads about flukes (sp?). Kinda sounds like the spots I'm seeing on one of my fish. Is it a parasite? If I nip it in the bud (with salt and water changes) will I still have to medicate? Maybe I should call my aquarium. (I live in Canada, so I use Big Al's) I'm starting to get a little paranoid. I watch them every second I can spare (which isn't a lot with toddlers hanging around) sounds like darryl and Jen are full of info. I would love some help.

Ariel, flukes are so small that they can't be seen unless under a microscope so I doubt that is what you are seeing.

Have you started a topic in the disease/diagnosis section? I think that is probably the best thing to do now and try to answer as many questions as possible in the 'red box' so people have all the information needed to give you advice.

Hi Ariel Since this is a pinned topic relating to diagnosing fish, can I suggest you start a thread in 911 section?

Here's the link: New topic in 911

It sounds like your fish have parasites and they may need something more than salt so if you could, please start a new thread and answer as many of the questions from the box in the reply section - you'll get more help there

Edit: Annette and i answered at the same time

Well this might sound strange but my husband takes care of the tank i know very little about it but plan on learning. He has always done a fine job, I usually just have to enjoy, but this time we have a sick fish and I am worried, trying to gather as much info as possible. He was bright orange and white and over a week now has dappled into black spots everywhere. Just today his disposition was different and he ligured and the bottom of the tank. What to do can you tell me?

Oh by the way he is a goldfish!!!!!

- I am so glad i came to KoKo's and
can't tell you how your post has made it come
together for me to be able to chat with
my fish keeper, that's really the scary part
is telling somebody so they know what
you know. And know what you mean to tell
them.
-This post is awesome and ty again for all your
help-

Hi. This is a wonderful site, ive learned so much in the last 2 days. Had no idea there were so many details involved while taking care of fish.

Im from a place called Mangalore in india, and we have just 2 local fish pet shops. And their stocks leave a lot to be desired. Whenevr we buy a new fish chances that its got an infection is 90% and that it will die in a week 50%. Cruel, i know. But thats how ignorance goes. There is just one 'blue medicine' which i suspect is methylene blue, for almost all problems. So in the past for fish lice i used to use either salt or remove it manually.
Ive known some of my friends to break a capsule of an antibiotic and dissolve it in water as a remedy for sick fish. They tell me it works, but i've never tried it.

Would it work if i dissolved Praziquantel which we get in the pharmacy and add it to the water as prophylaxis or treatment of fish parasites? If yes, what should be the percentage. And also, how do i calculate the amount of salt?

Hello Entasha and a very warm welcome to the site!

You've posted your query on a pinned thread (which is less likely to be seen regularly), which is for guidance really. I recommend starting your own thread in the diagnosis and discusion forum (hit the new topic button)

http://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/...hp?showforum=10

and answering as many of these as possible, that way somebody experienced at treating sick goldfish will be able to help you.

Please provide the following details when requesting help for Goldfish Problems: Test Results for the Following:
Ammonia Level?
Nitrite Level?
Nitrate level?
Ph Level, (If possible,KH and GH and chloramines)?
Ph Level out of the Tap?
Tank size (How many Gals) and How long has it been running?
What is the name and size of the filter/s?
How often do you change the water and how much?
How many fish in the tank and their size?
What kind of water additives or conditioners?
Any medications added to the tank?
Add any new fish to the tank?
What do you feed your fish?
Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt",
bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus?
Any unusual behavior like staying
at the bottom, not eating, ect..?

In the meantime I will try to find you some more info too

"Would it work if i dissolved Praziquantel which we get in the pharmacy and add it to the water as prophylaxis or treatment of fish parasites? If yes, what should be the percentage. And also, how do i calculate the amount of salt?"

Heres a thread on the use of salt

http://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/...showtopic=60876

Salt can be a very effective QT treatment in that it wipes out a range of parasites (barring resistant strains of course), a concentration of 0.3% is the usual effective dose for treating parasites, for at least two weeks - sometimes longer. If dosing to 0.3% salt do this in three divided doses (0.1% increments at a time) over at least twelve hour intervals.

The dosing can be worked out two ways - either 1 gram of salt per litre (for example, a 100 litre tank would need 100 grams of salt to achieve a 0.1% concentration and then repeat that twice more to achieve a 0.3% concentration in total (3 grams per litre)

Otherwise, you can dose 1 Teaspoon per gallon of water to acheive 0.1% and work up to 0.3% over three divided doses (or if replacing already salted water 1 Tablespoon of salt per gallon is roughly 0.3%.

Pre-dissolve all salt in a litte tank water before dosing and take care with very small or debilitated fish, it can be dangerous.

Some people find a 1.5 -3% 2-5 minute salt dip before commencing QT helpful as it dissolves the slime coat (thus taking off the majority of bugs) before working up to the 0.3 % concentration, however this can be stressful but starts off a QT period well.

My understanding is that yes, prazi can be used on a prophylactic basis or for active treatment of flukes and a few other things (can't remember what). Some people on here do that during QT (if available where they live) Otherwise, wait for positive signs of flukes before treating.

I don't know too much about the lice question, but I think Dimillin (sp?) works well. I'll find a thread for you.

There is a medication in the US, called Parasite Clear which has a bit of prazi and some dimillin in it - not sure of it's available where you are. Thats pretty mild and can work well as a one-off paraiste/bug treatment during QT.

Hope this helps a bit. For more particular information, it's better to start your own thread with the relevent info

Fish lice info

http://www.kokosgoldfish.com/Fish%20Lice.html

Mrbumblebee Those are good links. Went through them. Thankyou. Never really understood how much salt to use before.

Though as praziquantel is not available here for fish, as such, if i were to use the basic drug, would you know whats the percentage to be used?

No problem!

Sorry, I'm not sure about your prazi question.

It may be worth starting a new thread for any further queries in the diagnosis and discussion forum and people may be able to comment/help you further

Will do Thank you.