Hi there. I'm new to this forum and I apologize if this is in the wrong spot, but I'm having a bit of problem cycling my tank.

A little background first. This is my first fish. Actually, it's for my 3-year-old daughter (but of course I'm doing all the work for now). For her red ryukin named Dennis, we bought a 10 gallon tank, undergravel filter, AquaClear power head set to 100 gph, and even a Coolworks Ice Probe to keep the 7.8 pH de-chlorinated water at a chilly 68º (it's a great chiller for not a lot of money if you're having warm water problems). Our water source doesn't use chloramine, I called and asked before beginning this endeavor.

I've been testing the water every couple days, for ammonia and nitrites (keep hoping to see some nitrites). I change roughly 20% of the water and vacuum the gravel every couple days (usually coincides with ammonia levels getting up). We've had him for 17 days now. I test the ammonia and it comes up between 1 and 2 ppm. I change 2 gallons of the 10 gallon tank every couple days. No nitrites at all yet.

Am I just being impatient? I would have thought that after 2½ weeks I would have seen SOME nitrite production happening. Or does it sometimes take more than this time for any bacteria to form? I thought UGFs were great biological filters, but nothing seems to be happening.

I gotta get this fixed, if not for Dennis' sake then for my daughter's. She calls him her "buddy fish" and hugs the tank which is in her room every night before bed. I'm hoping she can take him with her when she goes to college in 2020, but not if I can't get the tank cycled before then!

The links I have posted here may help you understand a bit more about the cycle, but, yes - it does take time. It can take up to 8 weeks or more at times. At 68 degrees, it is going to take a whole lot longer.

http://www.kokosgoldfish.com/cycle.html
http://www.kokosgoldfish.com/FishlessCycle.html

I am a bit curious why you need a chiller - I have had a few people that need a way to bring the temperature down if it regularly goes to 80+F. but in general, unless you have no source of extra aeration (bubbler or surface agitation from a waterfall filter), the fish are fine up to 80 degrees with no intervention. I run all my tanks between 74-78 depending on the type of fish....... 68 is rather chilly.

The beneficial bacteria will develop far better and more quickly at 78 degrees F than at 68. Let your tank warm up slightly and slowly and things will go along much more swimmingly.

Cycling a tank takes time. There is a product called BioSpira which will give you a quick cycle - within a week or so, for it has active beneficial bacteria, but I have not heard of any of the other products that are touted for setting a cycle that really do the job. BioSpira will only be found at a mom&pop type shop or on line, though.

An undergravel filter is not my choice for a goldfish. It works by having the waste broken down and digested under the plate on the bottom of the tank. They do work well in a tropical tank where the fish are small and so is the waste load, but a goldfish can be a really dirty character - and can easily overwhelm the UGF. The Aquaclear Filter should help a lot - if it filters more than 100 gallons per hour, use the extra amount.

I think I would feel better for Dennis if you changed about 20% of his water every day to keep the ammonia lower than 1-2 ppm. There are a few long term problems that a goldie can get from exposure to high ammonia levels. There are even more severe long term problems that can occur from high nitrite levels, so when you get to that stage, you will really need to keep up with it.

It sounds to me like Dennis found himself a wonderful home - your daughter sounds charming. Do not be in such a rush to send her to college - I wish I had 15 more years with mine again!!!!

Perhaps you will be able to post pictures of Dennis and his girl soon - then we can all enjoy them!

BIO-spira can be a hard product to find. I've used "Cycle", and it's great. If you have a petsmart near you, they have it there.

I had the same problem you had. The biggest thing is the temperature. It needs to be up at around 72-74 degrees F. Otherwise, it may take weeks for the nitrites to show up. I would know, my tank went 6 weeks with no nitrites before I gave in and bought a heater.

Also, it may be in your best interest to get a different filter, under gravel ones can clog. I reccomend the penguin 100 mini bio-wheel. You can get it for about 18 dollars on the internet or at your local fish store.

Good luck, I'd love to see pictures of the fish!

they say that if it gets exposure to high ammonia levels it will stun there growth
and they will not grow to what there are supposed to b?
is dat rite?

Ahhh. I was thinking that in an 8 week cycle I should see some nitrite production by 2½ weeks in.



I got the chiller because the tank is in my daughter's room upstairs. It can get warm up there, and in the summer unless it's stifling we like fresh air rather than air conditioning. That means that even this early in the year (in Pennsylvania) his tank water was up past 80º. So I checked around and saw where a lot of people recommended temps in the high 60s or low 70s, so I settled on 68º as a good temp and bought the chiller. Plus, PA weather is such that depending on the day, and whether the window was open or not, it would range from low 70s to low 80s on any given day, and I thought the severe temp changes were bad, so again, the chiller lets me keep him right where I set it.

I didn't realize a cool tank would take longer to cycle. Maybe I will set his chiller up a couple degrees to speed things along. I think the chiller was a good idea, just maybe have it set a little too cool is all.



I had heard that a tank with a quick cycle like that is unstable. I had wanted to develop my own cycle slowly, and was set for an 8 week cycle, but again, thought I should see something after 2½ weeks.



The Aquaclear is a power head only, not a filter. You can buy a filter attachment for it, but I'm using it to get good circulation that I just wasn't getting from an air stone and air pump. It has aeration on it so the surface is well agitated, but it's serving merely to pull the water through the UGF.



That's where I was confused. I don't want his ammonia too high, though again the low temps help me feel a little better about him breathing right, but I also don't want to clean the ammonia out so much as to but the clamps on the cycling process. His tank rarely hits 2 ppm, and when it does I usually change 20%, then later that day another 20%. If I test it and it's around 1 ppm on change days, I only do 20%. And I try to only change every other day unless I test and the ammonia is high. So I have been trying to strike a balance between upsetting Dennis' whole little world by changing water all the time, while at the same time keeping ammonia in there to cycle, and keeping ammonia low to not hurt him.



I have one I love that I'll need to post. It's a picture of her and Dennis I took one morning. She got up, woke me up, and told me she wanted to read a story to Dennis. She in her jammies with "bed head" reading one of her little counting books to her "buddy fish".



I wish there was one answer. I have seen on other web sites people talking about how great a UGF is as a bio filter. Now here I'm hearing the opposite. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying I'm confused.

Hi Fab, Welcome to Koko's first of all!
You have gotten some great advice here but I just wanted to suggest that when you are doing your water changes every 2 days, that you not vacuum the gravel every time. Just change out some of the water. I'm no expert, but when I first started out I didn't use the gravel vac so the good bacteria can have a better chance at settling in. I use the gravel vac once a week with water changes. And alot of people recommend that you only do half at a time so as not to disturb all of your beneficial bacteria. But with the UGF you're using, I'm not sure if this would apply, I haven't used one. I agree with the others that for goldies (who are so messy, esp. the bigger they get) a HOB filter would be best.
My tank is also around 74-76. It is normal for their temp to go up a little with the season.
Can't wait for the pics! Your daughter reading to her buddy sounds so cute! My boys love to dip their fingers (clean ones! ) into the tank and get kisses when I am doing water changes.
Good luck with your cycling, I know it can be frustrating, but it sounds like Dennis is in great hands with you and your daughter.

Well, I turned up the temp in his tank to about 72º. We'll see how that turns out.

And I will keep changing out his water, but not vacuuming the gravel each time (which is what I was doing). Once a week. It can't hurt, I suppose.

Last point, when we got him home, we noticed that the lower portion of his tail fin was missing (he's fancy). So his tail on the right side is normal with a top and bottom lobe (don't know the names of the parts) but on the left side of his tail he only had a top lobe, the bottom was missing. It didn't look like a fresh wound, he didn't seem to have any problems getting around, and since he was my daughter's choice and we didn't notice until we got him home, we decided to just keep him defect and all. Just recently, last day or so, the place where the fin was missing is black. It's a very small area, and seems very minor, but it concerns me that all of a sudden it would appear black like that. He seems healthy enough, but I'm concerned there might be an infection or something. It seems odd that he'd appear normal for two weeks then all of a sudden show a spot, though.

Anyway, here are a couple pictures. One of my daughter Natalie when I surprised her with a picture while she was reading to Dennis. She'll be three in a couple weeks.



Another of Dennis showing his right side and his full fancy tail with top and bottom "lobe".



And a blurry picture (that little stinker is fast) of his left side showing the missing bottom "lobe" and the new little black spot. Any ideas what that is and if it's dangerous/serious?

The black spot could very well be from ammonia burn, and the black spot shows that its healing.

Just keep an eye on the ammonia and change the water if it gets too high. And again, the under gravel filter is not the best for growing bacteria, it gets disturbed each time you clean it. A penguin mini bio-wheel would work great.... I wouldn't expect you'd get going to well without some sort of filter like that...

Oh she is too cute sitting there reading to Dennis! Kids are so funny, huh?
My sons both have a betta tank in their rooms and a frog terranium in one. The tank #s in my house are about to get out of control!
I agree that it looks like before you got him, he probably suffered from high ammonia and the black spot means he is healing. Good luck with everything!

Well, his ammonia hasn't been more than 2 ppm since we've had him, and when I see it's that high I do a double change (20%, then about an hour later 20%) to get it back down around 1 ppm or so. So hopefully he didn't get that burn from anything I did. I feel bad about his tail, but somehow it makes him more loveable that he's not whole, and again, it's nothing I did or I'd feel simply awful.

I think you've all convinced me to get him a new filtration system. I am going to look into what's involved with convertin the AquaClear power head into a filter, but barring that, what sort is good. I see lots of mention of the Penguin BioWheel but I had heard that the Whispers allow you to run it without having the carbon in. Frankly, I don't see what chemicals I should have the carbon in to remove. I don't want to have to buy replacements for the filter all the time. I'd like a filter that with a little bit of maintenance I can run cost free (other than electric and time) forever. Thoughts?

Well, the AquaClear power head can convert into a mechanical filter, but that's all. Money down the tubes, so to speak. That's okay, I just want to make sure Dennis has the best environment I can make for him.

So the only question remains is is it possible to run the BioWheel without the carbon?

Most definately. I take the cartridges that are sold for the various Penguin's and Emperor filters and slit the blue floss along the top of the cartridge. Shake the carbon pieces out into the garbage - banging it on the can's side works well. The cartridge rarely needs to be changed - I only change them when the blue stuff gets so hairy and worn that it does not work very well - once every 3-4 months or more. I just shake and bang it out really well in a bucket of used fish water every week.

One more thought, though. A Penguin 110 (great little filter, by the way) has no other place but the bio-wheel and the cartridge for bio-media. The entire cycle is contained on the bio-wheel (and in your gravel and decorations and the blue floss). Bio-wheels do hold a nice platform of benficial bacteria but they are notorious for slow growth and development. I drop extra pieces of ceramic cylindars into the cartridge where the carbon used to be. It still slips into its slot well, but you have extra, ideal platform for the cycle to colonize. These never need to be replaced.

Your daughter is adorable!!!! I want a granddaughter to spoil!

Well I did it today. Went out and bought Dennis a Penguin 100 bio-wheel filter. So far so good. The water was all nasty at first (from pulling up the undergravel filter it stirred up . . . well, everything) but it's doing a great job of filtering that all out very quickly.

I also bought some bacteria starter to help my cycle get going, especially in cooler water. Thanks everyone for your advice and help. Hopefully things will get progressing more now.

One question though. I couldn't find it in the documentation, but the intake at the bottom, should it be above the gravel or inside the gravel? Second question, there's a second intake grating half way up the intake tube. If that's open does it bring in more or less water or the same, and why would you want that open versus wanting it closed?

Congrats on your new filter. I hope you like it. Put the bottom intake just above the gravel since most of the stuff settles at the bottom. Mine doesn't have the middle intake, but I would think it would be good open so that it can pull stuff from that area of the tank too. Maybe someone else has that and can tell you better.

The intake tube should be near the gravel, but not in it, preferably right above so that it can suck in all the poo. If the grate is open, it brings in less water, but will filter the water better because it's coming in at 2 different levels. You can do whatever you want, but I'd suggest leaving it open.

Which bacterial product did you buy, and have you bought a heater yet?

I bought what PetSmart had. It's called Proquatics Bacteria Starter. And I don't have a heater. I have a chiller. If I want the tank to warm up, all I need to do is turn the chiller off. It will be 80º in a matter of a couple days (hence the need for the chiller).

And thanks for the info on the filter. I have it open now and can see little bits of stuff getting sucked in. It's nice to see, since the UGF you really couldn't "see" it working. I just have to remember to turn it off when I feed him. Didn't think of it last night (again the UGF merely pulled the food to the gravel and kept it there). I put in his food and within about 5 seconds most of it went ZIP! Into the filter. So I turned it off before bringing out his entrée.

Ok, you want the temp of the tank to be about 73-74 degrees F. The bacteria will grow much faster than at 68 degrees.

Yeah, I turn my filters off when I feed the fish, although even with the filters off, the foods gone within minutes.

I'm slowly increasing the tank's temperature up into that range, at least until I get the bacteria fully grown and cycled.

In the mean time, I'm having an issue with the new filter. I put it in Saturday afternoon. It's been running fine until Sunday afternoon. We came in from doing some yardwork and it was making a horrible racket. I turned it off and took it apart. Nothing appeared to be wrong with it, so I put it back together and turned it on and it ran perfectly. I figured it was a one-time problem. Monday morning when I woke up it was doing the same thing. The tank's in my daughter's room and she was sleeping when I left for work, but since the wheel was turning normally I figured I'd tackle it when I get home.

Does anyone know anything about this? The sound is like what you would imagine if someone had put a rock down where the impeller turns. Yet when I looked at it yesterday everything was normal, the impeller turned normally, there was no blockage or impediment, nothing. It just seems to like making a horrible racket that you can hear from down the hallway! It's a good thing my daughter is a hard sleeper.

But I don't want to put up with it like it is now. I was hoping someone had some information or advice.

Ummm. I can't say for sure. They do get noisy when air is getting in the tube though. Do you have bubbles from an air stone that might be too close to the intakes? Mine were making too much vibration noise so I had to fold some paper and stick it in around the top lift off part, but it wasn't that noisy. I have had to move airstones a little farther away from the intakes though because they made ALOT of noise so that is my 1st thought.

No, I don't have an airstone running. There is no possible ways it could be sucking in air as both intake slots are deep in nothing but water.



It doesn't sound like it's the actual unit that's vibrating off the side of the tank. If you took a small gravel stone and put it down where the impeller would smack off it about a million times a second, that's the racket it makes. It actually sounds like it's shredding itself to death. We're talking playing card sticking in a fan, sort of noise. But when I took it apart, there's nothing wrong, and when I put it back together it ran whisper quiet again.

I'll check it out when I get home tonight, but I could hear it from outside my daughter's room with the door closed. So it's actually pretty loud. Not only do I dislike the noise but I'm afraid that it's hurting the unit somehow.

Look extremely close, a bunch of hair could be stuck around the impeller, it's almost impossible to see. You have to get it out with a toothpick or similar. That's what happens to mine, and they make racket like crazy!

Ugh, I wouldn't like it making all that noise either. I'm surprised she slept through that except she's like my youngest, he'll sleep through anything If you don't see anything wrong and it is still doing it, I would give Petsmart a call and see about exchanging it. They are usually good about returns at the petsmart here.

Well, I took it apart last night and put it back together and now it's running fine. Still is 12 hours later. I'll be keeping an ear on it in the next few days to see if it stays running normally. Not sure what the problem is since you can't see inside or even get a glimpse without taking it apart, and taking it apart seems to fix the problem (and reveal nothing wrong). Oh well, it's working now, Dennis is happy, his tank is below 1 ppm ammonia, his tank is at a balmy 74º, and I have bacteria in the water from my starter so hopefully we'll get cycled soon. Thanks for all your help.

Yep. With the water temp at 74, the filter running properly, and the biological additive, it should get done fairly quickly.