Hey all. I need some advice to treat a sick goldie. I have had a baby blue oranda and two loaches in a 15 gallon quarantine tank ( ) for a little over two weeks. Tank was cylcled using a water from my 40 gallon, and has a Penguin 125 biowheel also taken from my existing 40 gallon, (I keep running as an extra for emergencies or for new fish ) Water params are good; Am 0, NitrItes 0, NitrAtes are between 15-20, Ph steady @7.5 (same as tap, I seem to be lucky with tap water ph in this area as it does not fluctuate). Temp in tank at the moment is 78 degrees; and I change approx 5-6 gallons with declorinated water every second day, with a prior gravel cleaning.

All three fish came from the same tank in Lfs, and I have had no problems until about four days ago. The blue oranda ( well actually brown and blue now with color change and growth) has become quite listless, interupted with periods of dashing around the tank (no indication of him rubbing against anything). He hangs about 2/3 of the way up the tank breathing slowly, but is alert. If I drop food in he will feed well (I gave him a little medi-gold this morning). Dorsal fin is clamped close, but caudal fins are open but do show some signs of blood, (blood was a little difficult to see because he has been picking up some light tan coloration with growth). He is also showing signs of 'panting' for the want of a better word, (not gasping as in gasping for air but much less pronounced). Contd

Continuation

He is about 2 inches long ( not including tail) and has grown about an inch since I purchased him. Loaches don't show any problems, and they did come from the same tank, Everything on the tank was sterilised before adding the water and the fish. I have meds on hand ( Primafix, Melafix, Maracyn, Maracyn2, Quickcure,) but am really not sure what course of treatment to put this guy on. Any help would be much appreciated,



Robert

Yes, you are seeing a parasitic infestation going on. Not to worry though. You are in good hands. I HATE parasites and love nothing more than to cause them a horribly painful death......

Ok, we will need to diagnose what you are seeing to know exactly how to go about treating them. Is it possible for you to aquire a microscope to perform a few slime scrapes? You can even do this with the cheapest versions of scopes. I got mine from walmart. It sits up front with the telescopes, guitars and other curio just past the registers on your way out. It comes in a box with a telescope and sells for less than 30 dollars. This is the scope that I use myself (until I can locate a good one locally). Anyway, once a scope is found, all you'll need is a popsicle stick, a slide and a coverslip (several of each is best). The rest is easy to do and I will be happy to walk you through it.

If you cannot aquire a scope, you can only go about this systematically to deduct what possible parasites you may have:

1--- This is started by bringing the salt solution in the tank up to 0.3% over the course of 3 days. Once there, you need to kep the solution at that % for 2-4 weeks (no less). If you see improvement during the salting, you can be pretty sure that you either had costia, chilodonella, trichodina or oodinium. If no improvement is noted, see step 2. After 3 weeks (my preference) remove all of the salt and let them be for a month. If by that time you do not see ANY finflicking, bottom, glass or ornament scratching. coughing movements of the mouth and gills, clamped fins and like symptoms, you should be pretty well in the clear.

2--- If you DO begin to see a repeat, you can be certain that you eiother have flukes or a salt resistant strain of costia. At that point, Praziquantel should be administered as per the instructions on the treatment pag under flukes. If improvement is noted during the prazi treatment, you can be certain that it was indeed flukes and you should continue treatment until completed.

3--- If no improvement is noted under the prazi treatment, you kight very well have the dreaded SRC (salt resistant costia) and you will need a much more intense treatment to rid your fish of them.

I really must tell you that I am a HUGE fan of salt dips. They will easily purge 90% of parasites that you might have on your fish at that given point in time. I suggest 1.5 - 3% dips for the duration laid out in the flukes treatment thread in the treatment section.


Aren't you glad you utilized quarentining with your newbies? If you hadn't, well, let's just say you would have a tankful of unhappy fish.....


Post back soon and we can get the ball rolling for you.

Paul

I forgot to add that your loaches will need a seperate quarentine conainer and treatment regemine. They dont like salt much and you'll be treating them with another med altogether. Most likely acriflavin or even jungles parasite clear............

Ty for the quick reply Toothy. We think we have a microscope in my daughter's closet. I'm sure it will be a few hours before it is found though, (imagine a 15 year olds closet ). If it can't be found I will hit wal- mart in the am. Meantime I am going to order some Prazi from Dr Fosters so have on hand. They have a 4z bottle on sale for about 8 bucks (good for 480 gallons). I think I will order up some Acriflavin as well. Do you think I should add some salt in the meantime without bringing it up to a 'loach hazardous' state? Also, given his size, do you think I could seaparate the Oranda in a 5 gallon tank with adequate filtration and water changes and an airstone: I didn't think I would need to have two quaratine tanks running at the same time so I only have a 5 gallon available. I can always pick up a storage container tho instead. Should I keep feeding as normal, or do you think medi-gold would help? Hopefully I haven't infected my other tank, but I am pretty certain I have been using different syphons, ( sheer luck) , and I use different buckets for new and discarded water. I will sterilize my syphons with a bleach solution just to be safe. As always thanks for the fast response and advice.

Cheers

Robert

Actually, try not to medicate with anything until you can get a scrape and exam done on him. This way, you have a MUCH better chance of getting an ID within a couple scrapes instead of scraping and scraping and scraping until you find one (whatever it is).

DR. fosters and smith has some very good meds available. You did good finding that site. Sure, why not order up some acriflavin in the meantime, It might just come in handy.

If you use the same bucket for discarded water as you do the other tank/s, its ok, just don't ever use the same syphon without a thorough cleaning (bleach is awesome stuff!) But, if you have enough stuff lying around, it is always best to use separate utensils and such for quarentine/hospital tanks.

Luckily, you will be very please to know that if you utilize ammo-chips as the actual substrate, you can keep your loaches in nothing more than a 5 gallon bucket with an aerator. But keep a lid on it so that they cant jump out (while keeping enough of an opening to allow fresh air to get in). Just be sure to rinse the ammo-chips VERY well before using them. They ususally come with a very fine dust all over them and you dont want this cloudiong your water and agitating your fish's gills. Also, I feel that its best to recharge your ammo-chips in a very strong salt solution for 24 hours (every 3 days) or just use new chips each time. Testing daily for only ammonia needs to be done in this bucket. Once a diagnosis is made (and if its not flukes), you will know to get the ball rolling with the bucket and the acriflavin (or parasite clear).


Here are some links to videos of different parasites to look for:

FishDoc parasite videos

check the chilodonella sp. videos

Heres a VERY good page to compare your findings with.keep in mind that most of these guys are hermless at best. This will help differentiate between possible suspects and beneficial stuff.

If you have any questions, dont hesitate to ask......

Hey toothless, sorry for the delay in replying but time has conspired against me this weekend. Overtime plus a broken tooth have put everything on hold. Can't find my daughter's microscope, so Wednesday is the earliest I can get to Walmart. Given that and thinking it was best to start some kind of treatment I have done as follows. I had enough ammo chips to coat the bottom of a 5-gallon tank, so I have removed the loaches (and added some rocks and plastic plants; well sterilised,) with a airstone and a little box filter to there. They seem quite active and curious.
I hit the quarantine tank with some Jungle fungus clear yesterday ( on the assumption that it couldn't hurt but may help), and removed the filter from the Biowheel. Will change some water later. I performed two salt dips (@ 1.5% strength ) today on Blueberry (my daughters choice of name). The first was for two minutes the second was for three minutes, (dips were about 3 hours apart). I was afraid to dip him longer as he started to get lethargic and float on to his side after about 90 seconds. He was quite listless this morning and very close to the surface but the second dip seemed to perk him up a little and he bounced on some Tubiflex where he was disinterested this morning. Right now he is a little active which I hope is a good sign and his dorsal is opening up a little but his caudal fins are very very red. I plan to do some more salt dips tomorrow, and Microscope is the plan for Wed. (even if it becomes to late to serve any purpose at this time), and I guess I need to plan to break down and sterilise this quarantine tank, and disinfect everything in it. I have a spare Whisper 40 running in my 40 gallon so with luck I can skip a cycle . Meds are ordered and I hope will be here soon. Thanks again.

Cheers


Robert

Great!

Your doing wonderful. The salt dips will certainly do quite a bit for your little ones but they still need to heal up a bit before you can expect more of a recovery. If this is flukes, their gills will be damaged and damaged gills is one sure fire way for them to lose their appetites. Its kindof like trying to eat during an asthma attack.........


The fungus clear will only clear fungus and/or some bacteria, including beneficial bacteria in your filter/tank so test religiously.

All in all, I think your fish are in very able hands with you. It sounds as though you have just the right amount of confidence that its going to take to knock this problem out in short order.

Keep us posted........

Possible signs of improvement. He seems to have perked up a fair bit this evening.
He now has some periods of lethargy interspersed with periods of 'normal' swimming around the tank looking for food. Right now he is picking at a Moss ball.
I will post back in the morning with an update, prior to giving him another salt bath.
I figured the Fungus clear would blow the cycle but as the need is now to break down the quarantine tank that didn't seem important. As for confidence to treat that comes from reading the numerous posts in Koko's and having so many knowledgeable folks like yourself as guides. As always Many many thanks






Robert

Morning. Just a quick status up date, Some different behavior this morning. Blue is most definately more alert, but is now at bottom of the tank, and is (the closest description I can think of) treading water. Dorsal is still clamped, but the blood in his Caudal fins is noticeably diminished (at a rough guess it's prolly about 50 -60 % less than yesterday). They were so red yesterday I thought he was going to start leaving blood trails behind. Plan for this morning is removal of the gravel from the tank, a 30% water change, another salt dip @ 1.5% solution, followed by some water testing. Wife checked local Wal-mart on her way to school last evening but no microsopes. I still plan to go there Wed morning and double check. Tanks all



Robert

Latest update; performed all tasks as described earlier. Two salt baths about 5 hours apart @ 1.5% solution. About 1 minute each dip. He seemed to get 'knocked
down' very quickly in the salt today, so I pulled after a minute. He was extremeley lethargic after the first and took a long time 'coming back up'; second he seemed to take a lot better. His dorsal fin is now erect most of the time and he is eating
between bouts of listlessness. Water params were fine on my latest tests Am 0, NIt 0, NitrA 10-15. Meds are coming tomorrow. Iv'e noticed a lot of white 'stuff'
collecting on the bottom (gravel removed) of the tank. Is this slime coat being sloughed of due to the salt dips or am I in 'cloud cuckoo land'? Other than that not much else to report. He seems stable for now.



Cheers

Robert

Thats great, the dips seem to be helping.

If the white stuff you see collecting looks like.... well.... clear strings of spit, yes, this is indeed slime being sloughed off or coughed out. If it is small little white tufts wafting in the current, it might just be beneficial bacteria trying to colonise the glass bottom since the gravl isnt there.

Keep it up!

Latest update. Went to Walmart; definately no microscopes, ( hehe! they told the wife to look in the rifle scope section, they sent me to the vision centre; now I know I wear glasses but I's look funny with two microscope lenses hanging on my nose). So Microscope is not an option at the minute. On the back burner but it is on my pick up list! I am not sure if I could get a decent scraping at this stage anyway.


Blue is eating well, and getting around the tank better than he was. Did a 35% water change today, params still good. I decided to forgo the salt for today to give him a break. His caudal fins are almost clear now, but have now become extremely shredded ( am I right in thinking this is possibly because of the salt?). Meds did not arrive. I am wondering if I should use some Jungle Labs Parasite clear in the interim; they do contain some prazi and acriflavine.

Will change more water tomorrow and also change the ammo chips from the loach tank. They don't seem to be showing any problems.

Any way thanks once again for your help.

Cheers


Robert

Well, shredded fins are indicative of one of 3 things:

pH fluctuations

bacterial finrot (caused by parasites)

poor water quality

If the pH of the dips have been the same pH as in the tank, you can pretty safely assume that its the parasites and bacteria thy harbor that is causing the shredding. If the pH is different, even by 1ppm, this could definitely cause fin shredding as well as other complications. So, test the tapwater and the tankwater for pH and see.

I am a very big fan of parasite clear. If used for a full two rounds, and water quality is maintained, most or all of the nasties that could be there should be dessimated. But, salt and prazi should be followed up with immediately for the remainder of the fish's stay in quarentine. Wether its salt dips or salt solution in the tankwater, it will help.


Hope this helps!

Seems to be both 'spit' and 'tufts' in the tank. Performed all my tasks for today, and added the Parsite clear ( its actually only @ 2/3 strength seeing as I am adding a 10 gal. tab to a 15 gal. tank but I hope that will do the trick). Ph is even all the way around. Tap is 7.5 as is quarantine tank (and loach and 40 gallon tanks). By the was I am using an Aquarium Pharm. Master Test kit.

I thought I had read in another post ( I read as many as I can) that excessive salt exposure could cash fin shredding. I checked my salt calculations and had erred on my dip dosage. My original dips were actually at 3% not 1.5% which may explain why he was so lethargic after each dip ( 4 over 2 days). I performed another this morning but reduced strength to 1% ( triple checked dosage) for 90 seconds and he came out of it very alert.

I also checked with Jungle Labs and the product is safe for loaches. Do you think I should start dosing the Loach tank or just observe for now ( I am hopeful that Blue is the only 'infectee'). They seem alert and fine ( Am and NtrI were both @ .25, but that was to be expected in a 'new tank', before I did a water change). By the way given how active loaches can be how can you tell if they have parasites?

As always I appreciate your guiding hand




Robert

yes, go ahead and dose the loaches as well. My main concern was for them to not be exposed to too much salt.


Yes, excessive salt can cause fin shredding. and you should not do more than one dip per day, really. I didn't say anything because I though they were 1.5% dips as well. Most likely, the fin shredding was indeed from the excess dips. Kudos on the research!!!!

I wouldn't stress the growths you are seeing in the tank. Unless they look specifically like mold on fruit or bread, it is most likely harmless.

Didn't you say that you removed the loaches to a tank that is utilizing ammo-chips as a substrate to keep ammonia from ever showing up? I fear that if you are trying to cycle the tank with them in it, any parasites that are evident will use their lessened immune systems to invade full force.


Paul

Well Blue passed during the night. He seemed to take a down turn after I added the parasite clear. Became very lethargic and listless, went totally off eating. He had developed a white ring around his mouth and towards his tail. I' m assuming perhaps he was just to weak, and I really didn't think he was going to last when I went to bed.

The loaches still seem fine. As for the ammo chips I thought you could still get an ammonia reading even with the chips, in that they just hold the ammonia in stasis where it won't affect the fish? Still hopefully they are not infected with whatever
killed Blue.

So today I'll be breaking down this Quarantine tank, including the filter, with bleach, and I guess in a day or to I'll move the loaches back. I can pretty much 'quick cycle' the tank with some water from my 'clean' 40 , my 'change water', and the extra Whipser 40 filter I have running there. Funny I had picked up an extra Biowheel 100 at the Lfs yesterday. It'll now take the place of the Whisper for emergency use, and the 125 when cleaned will go into storage.

Meds arrived last night, Prazi, acrifalvine and I think enough Parasite Clear for a life time; I think I misordered )

As always many thanks for you help and guidance.



Robert

Sorry your goldie passed.

I think maybe perhaps you may have been a little too overzealous with the salt dips at first. then again, maybe not. Who knows? All I can say is that if he wasn't looking too good before adding the PC, I would have waited til he was a bit better before trying it. Parasiticides can be pretty stressful and stablity needs to be considered before hand. However, I still stand by the prazi and salt.


Well, this as with everything, has been a learning experience for you. At least now, you have prazi and salt to handle the quarentine of ANY new arrivals you get in the future. also, if you can get a scope, do it. It will be MUCH, MUCH easier to treat for a parasite if you know what it is. That way, you can avoid medicating them with an un-needed drug.

So, any plans for a new goldie or two in the future?

Paul

Hey Toothy. I figured I had over-stressed with the salt dips, (given that I had misinterpreted a 3% dip as a 1.5% dip, along with everything else), and that he was just a little worn out, but life goes on. No more goldfish in the plans at the minute. I have two loaches to look after. They'll be under a 2 month quaratine for now just to be sure. They still are not showing any signs of illness by the way, still quite active. I 'll have them moved back into the 15 gallon by Tues. I have decided not to medicate for the time being. As I say there are no signs of sickness, so it'll be close observation for the interim. Thanks again for your 'sage' advice.

Cheers



Robert.