Hi everyone,

I'm a newbie to the forums. I'm also fairly new to fishkeeping but have done much research so far.

I just had a question. I have a 10 gallon tank right now equipped with a Whisper Power filter. I set the tank up and added the water treated with a conditioner/dechlorinater. The water sat for a couple of days, and then I added a goldfish.

She is a white/gold oranda.. about 2 1/2 inches (body and head). She's absolutely gorgeous!! Perfect in every way.

Anyhow, I've now had her for 3 days. Everything seems fine. She's not a real active fish and likes to stay in the bottom corner of the tank that faces towards me. She swims around occasionally, and eats fine. And she shows no signs of disease or problems at all.

I was reading up on different things these past few days and started reading about "cycling". I'm worried I may have made a huge mistake since I didn't cycle the tank before adding Suki (my fishie). Do you think things will be okay? She seems to be getting plenty of oxygen right now. I'm not over-feeding, and the temperature is at a consistent 65-68 degrees.

Do I need to worry? Will she be okay through the cycling process? I know first ammonia builds up... will I need to use anything to keep the ammonia levels down, or do large water changes?? And if I do, wouldn't that mess up the whole cycling process??

I know this was a long post, but if anyone can give me suggestions, I'd really appreciate it. Thanks so much!!

-Heidi-

Welcome to koko's!

First of all, there is no need to worry. Lots of people cycle their tanks with fish. Fish is a ready source of ammonia afterall.

I would suggest you read this article;
http://www.kokosgoldfish.com/cycle.html

You will need to buy a test kit with ammonia, nitrIte and pH tests. Drops are better than strips.

You can get some ammonia binders just in case the ammonia gets out of hand. You definitely need some salt to cover the nitrIte angle. Aquarium salt, rock salt, sea salt, canning salt, kosher salt are all fine, as long as they don't have anti-caking agents. Be prepared to do a fair number of water changes.

Good luck and enjoy your fish!

I didn't find out about cycling until after adding my fish, too. Whenever the ammonia got near 1ppm or my NitrItes near 2ppm I would do a 50% waterchange and used the maximum dose of Prime. They all got through it just fine. Its a lot of work for a few weeks. And becareful when selecting your test kits and dechlorinators. Some dechlorinators will give you false readings on certain types of test kits. And the drop kits are much easier to decipher and I believe those ones work with almost all dechlorinators. Suki should be fine. Thats a cute name by the way. I can't think of what to name mine because everything I come up with sounds lame.

You could buy a product called NutraFin Cycle it'll help cycle your tank really quick(I tried it when i bought my 13G and it cycled it within 2 weeks).

Salt is also a good thing because it'll help your fish combat several pathogens(e.g: ick,fungus...).

Captk has most everything covered, I would just like to add the daily testing is a must. Sometimes 2 times a day is nessasary. It is a pain, but very much a safe way to monitor what is going on.

Thanks so much for the replies! I feel a little better now and more optimistic

I did add some aquarium salt to her tank yesterday. The box said to add 2 tbsp. for a 10 gallon tank, but I felt that was quite a lot, so I added just 1 tbsp. Hope that still wasn't too much.

My last question is this.. If and when my ammonia and nitrite levels get too high and I need to do a big water change.. how should I do the water change? I heard it's best to do a gravel vacuum for changes, but will that ruin the cycling process? Should I just change about 50% of the water from the top?

Thanks so much again for all the input! This site is awesome, and I'll be sure to always have it bookmarked.

Well 1 tablespoon in a 10g is nothing. You need at 3 tablespoons+1 tea spoon of salt to get a 0.1% salt solution to help save the fish from nitrIte spike, because your tank is still cycling...

Podgy your calculations are OFF!! It is 1 tablespoon per 5 gals. I know you are trying to help but Please be careful before spouting out info.

M + H once you get ammonia readings over 0.5 then you will need to do a water change 20-30% retest and see where it is. The goal is to keep both ammonia and nitrites no more than 0.5 when cycling. Once cycling is done they should be 0.
Changing the amount of water will depend on what you results you get when testing. Just keep the under 0.5 the rule of thumb and you should be good. It may take a little longer to cycle but your fish will be safe.

Once the nitrites begin to show that is when you can use the salt to ease their stress. Doing 1 tablespoon per 5 gal is suffiecent.
Now in case you don't know salt doesn't evaporate. The only way to remove it is by water changes. Example with salt in the tank as prescribed above if you remove 50% of the water you have removed 50% of the salt. Make sense??? So then you would need to replace that 50% of salt. In a 10 gal tank this would be 1 TBLspoon.

Got it?? If you need help thru this process just give us a call. It can be overwhelming when doing it, but remember this will take time..........took me 13 weeks to do mine!!

I meant the UK Gallon is 1 tablespoon per gallon to get 0.1%

Wow, the evil salt measuring spoon strikes again!

Okay, first of all, M+H, you have only added ONE tablespoon of salt to 10gal. That is not enough for nitrite protection. You need to add at least another tbsp.

Now, let's all take a step back. Podgy your original measurement is right.
1 tablespoon = 3 teaspoons. 0.1% in 10gal is 10teaspoon so you do need 3tbsp + 1 tsp. Of course we have to reduce that by 1 tbsp as he already added 1.

Now, where Podgy missed the mark is that 1 UK gal = 1.2 US gal so it is really only 1.2 tsp you need, not 1 tbsp which is way over.

I know the salt packets always quote 1 tbsp/5 gal. I think that is on the low side. Workable but I would prefer 1.5tbsp/5 gal.

Now I'm confused doesn't take much.

You know what, Annette? We are actually the lucky ones because we only have to remember that 1g/L is 0.1% salt concentration. Easy-pleasy. Do that with my kitchen scale.

You realise that all the teaspoon, tablespoon, etc are only approximations.

If you want to be absolutely correct, it should be 0.13328oz per US gal. As 1 teaspoon is defined as 1/6oz. We are actually overdosing by 0.033oz per gal. Shock! Horror!

Captk, I have a question for you.

How can your above statement not conflict itself?

"1 tablespoon = 3 teaspoons. 0.1% in 10gal is 10teaspoon so you do need 3tbsp + 1 tsp. Of course we have to reduce that by 1 tbsp as he already added 1."

You said 1 tablespoon =3 teaspoons. Then you say to get to 0.1% solution you need to use 10 teaspoons how is this correct? If 3 teaspoons =1 tablespoon then wouldn't it be 6 teaspoons not 10????

And I have wondered on the US vs UK gals and have Pmed some other members to speak on this issue.
I also hope that your comment wasn't intended as being sarcastic, since we are ALL trying to help a fellow member without too much confussion.

so if its one Table spoon per 5 gals of water not including the rocks and stuff in the tank which I'm assuming there is. And if we already added one Table spoon for the ten gal tank then I think this person would only need to add one more table spoon for the rest of the tank.

Now since its only .2 more gals of water for the UK's then I wouldn't worry to much about adding more salt since I'm sure that there is gravel and such in the tank and that part of the water isn't there any way.

Its much better to go slowly with salt than to over do it then it would be to do small water changes to help combat this problem....???

Umm, 10 tsp = 3 x 3tsp + 1 tsp = 3 x 1tbsp + 1 tsp. Right?

He did mention earlier that he thought adding 2 tbsp to 10 gal was too much so he only added 1 tbsp and that is why I said to deduct one tbsp.

Laurie, you were the one who proclaimed that Podgy's "calculations are OFF". I didn't see any problem with that and I commented on it.

I'm not being sarcastic as all. If you have seen as many teaspoon/tablespoon misconceptions/confusion as I have, you would run screaming out of the room too. It is enough to confuse Einstein.

As for the previous post about teaspoon dosage being an approximation, that is absolutely true. You are most welcome to do the sums. The SI standard is 1g/L = 0.1% concentration. The conversion to tsp/gal is a pain but the maths is straight forward.

I am not from the UK, so UK gallon don't give me much to work with, and I usually forget that the fellow UKers have a different gallon than we have.
But on the subject of teaspoons, if we work with those, and 10 teaspoons are needed for a 0.1% solution in a 10 gl tank, and each tablespoon contains 3 teaspoons, then yes, 3 tablespoons plus 1 teaspoon would make up the 10 teaspoons.
1 tablespoon = 3 teaspoons, so 3 tablespoons = 9 teaspoons, plus one more teaspoon to make it 10. Minus the one tablespoon that M+H have already added, so that leaves us with 2 tablespoons (= 6 teaspoons) plus 1 teaspoon to add.
Of course, not to forget that not every salt measures equally on a spoon. Rock salt is larger and more corse than sea or aquarium salt, and therefore one spoonfull of rock salt is different than 1 spoon full of aquarium salt. I usually have a salt test kit handy to make sure it is really on the desired mark that I am trying to accomplish. Its always a good idea.
Now, where is Emma when we need her?... And if I have to type teaspoon or tablespoon just one more time, I am gonna scream!

I am having flashbacks to story problems in school, I hated those things.

My confusion lies in this----IF we say it is 1 tablespoon per 5 gals, and 3 teaspoons is 1 tablespoon. Then 3 teaspoons per 5 gals. So double that to get to 10 gals and we use 6 teaspoons, right??? How are you guys coming up with 4 more teaspoons???

And I agree with you...........having to type these spoons is making my fingers cramp.

Yes, indeed, Ranchugirl. That is why I prefer the SI standard. 1 gram is 1 gram regardless of shape or size.

Laurie, the only confusion comes from the stupid aquarium salt manufacters who insist on quoting a third standard of 1tbsp/5gal which does not equate to 0.1% or 1g/L or 1tsp/gal (BTW, they never actually said that 1tbsp/5gal is 0.1%, they just say dose to this amount, trust us. ). It is a bit like having 3 ways to measure a pint. Crazy, eh?! I always use either 1g/L or 1 tsp/gal. They are close enough to be the same but 1tbsp/5gal is way out there.

School!! Darn, I hoped I never had to go there again!

Laurie, some people use the 1 TEAspoon/1gl of water, other people, like me, go for the 1 TABLEspoon/ 5 gl. I do the bigger spoon size, because I have very course rock salt or solar salt, and when I used teaspoons at the beginning (1 of those per 1 gl of water), I ended up with a higher salt concentration than 0.1%.
Now, when using the much finer aquarium salt, its a whole different story. With that kind of salt you can go with the 1 teaspoon/1gl measurement, as long as its not a heeping spoon full.
Now, if we follow CaptK's calculations with the 1 teaspoon/1 gl, then we end up with 10 teaspoons in a 10 gl tank. And if 3 teaspoons = 2 tablespoon of that salt, then we have 3 tablespoons plus 1 teaspoon to get to the right dosage.
With my 1 tablespoon of rock/solar salt per 5 gl, we would need 2 tablespoons for the 10 gl tank. Its a matter of what salt is being used, and how big the tank is. With my big tanks, and assuming I would use aquarium salt, I would stand and stand there counting little teaspoons, and I am sooo way over that one!
Salt dosage can be tricky, and I have reached the point of just using a test kit to really make sure I am at whatever percentage I am trying to accomplish. Unless the whole package of salt suddenly falls into the tank, its pretty harmless to get the dosage wrong. Salt is one of the mildest treatments that are out there, and unless you have Israeli koi which have NEVER in their life being exposed to salt, fish will take it well.

OK now my head is spinning too.

Question: how far out there is 1 tablespoon to 5 gallons of water. I think that gives less than the 0.1%. Am I correct then that to properly salt my 125 gal I need 125 teaspoons of salt or 41.6 tablespoons at 3 teaspoons to the tablespoon to get the 0.1% target. (this is using coarse aquarium salt)

Sorry I am bit confused on this one.

YOu and me both Technogold.

I understand all of the above, but how are we suppose to recommend dosages to people when we have no clue of what they are using or which method 1 teas per gal or 1 tabls per 5 gal they aren't the same.

I guess what it comes down to is I want to feel comfortable giving the correct info..............so if we do this "loosly" then is it better to under dose or over dose????

Hehe, alright alright.. this is too much conversion talk for me :-P

So things seem okay so far. Suki is doing well, and it's been over 4 days that she's been in the tank.

I was unable to find a water test kit today (I live in a small town with no pet store!) We do have a Super Wal-Mart but they were all out of test strips! And they don't carry the kits. Luckily I'm going to a real city tomorrow and will pick a kit up.

In the meantime, I did a 25% water change tonight with some gravel vacuuming even though shes not showing any signs of ammonia posioning or lack of oxygen yet. I also added 2 more teaspoons of aq. salt.

Now... here's some fun for everyone! I first added 1 tablespoon of salt yesterday to my 10 gallon tank. Then I did a 2.5 (25%) water change tonight and added 2 more teaspoons afterwards. According to what everyone is saying (1 full tbsp. per 5 gallons), how much do I need to add still??

My calculations say I should still add about 1/4 a tablespoon + 1 teaspoon. ?? Sound about right? Sorry to be so confusing! I added the extra 2 teaspoons before checking the forums


Thanks so much again for everyone's help! I really appreciate the site, and I'm sure Suki does too!

Technogold, you are in luck! For a 125gal tank to reach 0.1% salt concentration you will need 1 (one) pound of salt. Neat, eh?!

Laurie, I understand what you are saying that is why we must only keep one thing in mind. Salinity as expressed as a percentage. 0.1%, 0.3%, 1%, whatever. Everything follows from that.

0.1% = 1tsp/gal or 1g/L
0.3% = 3tsp/gal or 1tbsp/gal or 3g/L and so on and so forth.

The KISS principle applies here. If people wants it in pints or cups, they can go and do their own conventions.

Let's put it this way. How many times have you adviced someone on the dosage for a 50gal tank and the first thing they said is "gee, that sounds like a lot, I only put in 1/3 of what you suggested". Now, where is THAT taken into account in the formula!

Okay, Matthew and Heidi! You added one tablespoon (or three teaspoons)of salt for Suki, who's in 10 gallons - according to what the others are saying, you should have added seven more teaspoons to reach an 0.1 % concentration. But you had 3 in there - then did a 25% water change. (2 and 1/2 gallons). If the salt had dissolved evenly, as it probably did, you took out 1/4 of three teaspoons - or 3/4 of a teaspoon. Then, after your water change, you had 2 1/4 teaspoons of salt left in the tank. Then you added two more teaspoons. So now you have 4 1/4 teaspoons of salt in your ten gallon tank. You will need to add 5 3/4 teaspoons more to bring it up to the one teaspoon per gallon the others are recommending.

Just to muddle things further, if you believe the one tablespoon per five gallons measure, rather than the one teaspoon per gallon, you would need to add 1 and 3/4 teaspoons to bring it up to 6 teaspoons/ten gallons.

Do I get a prize? Seriously, this is the kind of word problem we used to get lollipops for in grammar school! (American usage here, folks - I mean elementary school.)

Well done, Mary! A gold star for you.

Honestly though, trying to work out the amount of salt like that after each water change will drive you up the wall. The easiest way to maintain the correct salt concentration is to first salt the tank to whatever salinity you want, say 0.1%.

Then each time you do a water change, instead of adding salt to the tank after the change, you add salt to the bucket of fresh water you are about to top up the tank with. So for example, if you are using a 1 gallon bucket, you would add 1 teaspoon of salt to the fresh dechlor water in the bucket. This way, you are adding water that is already at the right salinity back into the tank and your concentration will not be in doubt.

Well M+H, it sounds like you are doing a good job taking care of Suki (I like that name too!). You definitely came to the right place to learn about fish, I've learned a lot here myself, and keep learning more everyday. Keep up those water changes, and use the salt, and Suki should be fine. I know it's kind of overwhelming at first, but you'll get the hang of it!

Alright, you guys and your math! You are all making my head spin! Unfortunately, it's always been my worst subject.

You are making my head spin to and i am now also worried i've over salted my tank - how much of a problem would that be?

I'm not going to say how much i've put in there because it involves tablespoons and uk gallons (but no water changes.... yet) so i think i'm going to weigh my salt from now on!



Also i can't find a salt test kit to check.

Anyway im glad to hear your fish are alright:)

Rachel,

If you are aiming to salt to 0.1% and ended up at 0.2%, that is not a problem. If you aim for 0.3% and got higher than it could be problematic. If in doubt, do several 30-40% water change over several days and that should bring the salt concentration way down and then you can start again.

*Laugh's* I do agree that its confusing! However, I highly recomend people getting the salt test kit. As Ranchu points out, they are bottom line and the last word.

When in doubt, trust the test result!

Once I had it down, I threw the tsp & tablespoon out, I can measure it in the palm of my hand and get within 0.02% just eyeballing the neat little amount....

How nice it is of the manufacturer's to convieniently forget to add what percentage that actually is, or to provide the medical usage percentages accordingly! But again, test kit in hand, we can actually take the test and see for ourseves!

Petsmart normally carry's them, though you might have to ask! Those kits are for both salt & freshwater so try looking in the saltwater area's!

An UPDATE:

So I went into Petsmart today to pick up some Ammonia tests. I spoke with the fish dept. lady for a while, and she said instead of doing water changes and stressing out Suki, I should use one of those ammonia remover pillows. But I was wondering, wouldn't this delay the cycling process a lot more than water changes? I'd really like some input on this one.

I just did an ammonia test and it read almost 1.0 ppm .

Water changes or the C-100 ammonia remover pillow?? Suggestions? I plan to do one or the other tonight.

-Heidi-

Heidi,

I would steer away from the ammonia pillow, zeolite, ammo-chip type of product for now. They will absorb the ammonia but you have to keep recharging them or they just sit there. Any absorbed ammonia is not available to the nitrifying bacteria so you are slowing the cycling down. On top of that, you can't use them when you are salting the tank as they will release ammonia back into the water. A bit of a trap for the unwary.

If you want to reduce the number of water changes, get some ammonia binders instead. They chemically bind the free ammonia into a harmless state. Products like Prime, amquel, ammo-lock are the usual suspects. Be warned, some ammonia test kits can't tell the diff between free and binded ammonia so they will return a high reading. You just need to place your trust in the product in that case.

Prime is really top notch and it doesn't mess with the Aquarium Pharm. Test's at all. A bit spendy, but its very concentrated so goes far compared to the others!

If the tanks cycling, something like cycle would help along also!