Ok, I have just bought the aquarium pharmacuticals master test kit thingy and have just done all the tests. I hope these are the right readings, as i say, its the first time i've used the kit so if it sounds odd i'll go and do the reading again.

pH 8.0 (had to use the high pH tester)
Ammonia between 0 and 0.25ppm
Nitrite 0ppm
Nitrate 5 - 10ppm

The pH of the tap water straight out the tap is 7.0

Does that sound ok? I think the pH in the tank is a bit high, what could be causing it and how do i lower it?

I did a water change tuesday, about 25% and use Tetra Aquasafe water conditioner.

The tank has been set up over a year.

I do think that kit is good, however recommended it on here was spot on

Thanks for any help,

Rachel

Sorry, also wanted to ask what the best temperature range is, i am a bit worried they are too cold.

I keep my goldies at 78F. I think it's better for their immune and digestive systems.

Any idea why you're seeing ammonia?
Gotta be very careful with ammonia as with pH of 8, even .5ppm ammoina is toxic.

There are several reasons you could be seeing a pH increase.
-carbon dioxide (which is an acid) is gassing out of well buffered water
-some carbons can raise pH
-what type of decorations, etc do you have in the tank?

Any idea what your KH and GH are?

You could draw up some tap water into a container... test pH, add a bubbler and test the pH again in 24 hours to see if it increases there. That would tell us if it's the CO2 gassing out that's doing it.

I have no idea why i'm seeing ammonia, it might even just be i read the test wrong. I'm going to do the tests again this morning and see what they look like now. I'll also do the water in a bucket thing with some tap water. I don't know what the kh and gh are, i don't have tests for those, but i know our water is hard.

The decorations are all tank decorations, a small stone castle thing, not painted or anything, some real plant and quite a few fake plants.

Is there any way i can lower the pH, at least until i have sorted out the ammonia?

Thanks,

Rachel

Ok, i've tested again and the results were the same as before, the pH is 8 or just below. I'm going to try and get some of the stuff that locks ammonia up so it doesn't hurt the fish. Haven't re-tested the tap water yet. Also a heater because i think they are a little cold - am i right in thinking the heater will help the cycle as well?

Yep, the biofilter bacteria grow faster when it's warmer.

The pet store should be able to test your water. You could get them to test KH and GH. Have them tell you specifics. You also should be able to get ahold of your city's annual water quality report. That will also have info on average levels along with info on how they're treating the water. Usually hard water is well buffered.

pH of 8 really isn't a problem unless you start seeing ammonia.

Ok, i've been to 2 lfs' today

Bought a hardness test kit and the tank water is:
KH 233ppm (13 drops of aquarium pharm solution)
GH 430ppm (24 drops)

Also got some ammolock and put a dose of that in the water until i can work out why the ammonia is there.

Goldies have been totally spoilt today, they have a new tank which is 50% bigger than the one they are in now and a small heater. I haven't moved them yet, will do that tomorrow. I will move everything from one tank to the other - filter, decorations and as much water as i can, it can't be any worse than where they are at the moment. I know the size of the tank isn't great but it is the biggest i have room for. Have also ordered a new filter but that won't be here for a week or so.

I'll have a look for the water report, be interesting to see what it says.

I have also put 1 air stone in temperarily. They seem happier just from the ammolock and air stone.

Once they are happy i'm sure i'll be back because i really want to work out why there's ammonia in the tank.

Thanks for your help,

Rachel

Cool. More water is better. Just be aware that ammolock may mess with your ammonia readings. I'd also feed lightly for now.

Your KH is plenty high enough to keep pH up at 8.

So how big is the new tank... how many goldies... etc?

The new tank is still only 18" x 12" x 12" but hopefully the goldies will appreciate it, when the whole lot is running nicely with the new filter - an external canister type - i might think about 1 more fish but probably not, this tank still isn't really big enough for Jen and Berry. When getting the new stuff for them tho i saw a lovely chocolate oranda that i would have loved to bring home but not yet.

I read the thing about the ammonia still showing up on tests, but that must mean also that it is still processed by the bio bugs to keep the cycle going, is that right?

Well i'm off to move the goldies into their new tank - hope it all goes ok , i've not done anything like this before!

Rachel

The new tank holds 11 US gallons. Are Jen and Barry still pretty small?
Yes, bound ammonia is generally available for the biobugs. Most of the binders change it into ammonium which isn't toxic. I don't think you'll get accurate ammonia readings with Ammolock in the water. Did you see any prime or amquel while you were out?

They are pretty small, 2" and 2 1/2" approx. I know its still too small really.

I didn't see prime or amquel but i did get stress coat water conditioner so i have used that to help them. They are in their bigger tank now and look quite happy. I'm waiting for the filter to get going and then i'll test the water in the new tank, I saved as much water from the old tank as possible but the new tank is still about 75% new water so i hope thats not too much of a shock for them.

Ok, i'm getting confused over the water conditions, I have tested the water in the new tank and the tap water. The tap water was straight out of the tap but i have some i'll leave out and test tomorrow and see what happens. Results follow:

Tank:
18"x12"x12"
Temp 19.4C
Ammonia <0.25ppm
Nitrite 0ppm
Nitrate 5ppm
pH 7.8 - 8.0
GH 412ppm
KH 233ppm

Tap:
Ammonia 0ppm
Nitrite 0ppm
Nitrate 10ppm (checked this twice!)
pH 7.2
GH 412ppm
KH 251ppm (could be the same as tank as only 1 drop more test solution needed)

So i guess my questions are why is there ammonia in the tank? Why is there nitrate in the tap water? Is the tap water still ok for water changes? And do i need to do anything?

Sorry about this, thanks for all your help,

Rachel

You're probably seeing the ammonia cuz the biofilter bacteria aren't totally up to speed yet. I wouldn't worry about that level of ammonia. If it creeps up to .5ppm, I'd do a partial water change to bring it down.

I see your water temp is kinda low. Did you add the heater? I'd raise it a degree a day till your up to 24C.

My tap water also has 10ppm nitrAtes. Our laws say that safe drinking water can contain up to 10ppm nitrAte. It's just makes keeping nitrAtes down a bit harder. Most people say to keep nitrAtes below 40ppm.

With your KH levels, I'd expect your water to have a high pH. I'll betcha you're going to see the pH rise in the water you sit out and airate cuz of CO2 getting gassed out.

I have added the heater but didn't want to warm the tank too fast, i'll turn it up again 1 click tomorrow, about 2 or 3 degrees i think, the scale isn't that fine.

I guess the filter i have doesn't have enough area for the bio bugs, hopefully the new filter, a fluval 104 external canister, will be better, i've ordered it and a packet of the ceramic biobead things incase the filter media it comes with doesn't include any. It should be here this week. I'll keep checking the water and see what happens until then,

Thanks for the help,

Rachel

Cool! that fluval sounds like a good home for the biobugs.

Ok, i have got a little further, they both look happy in the new tank although unfortunatly Jen has a split fin, probably from being moved in the net to the new tank. See my thread in the diagnosis forum, something like goldfish tlc needed for more on that.

Anyway, thats under control so i'm back here to try and sort out this pH and hardness issue.

The tank water conditions are:
Ammonia Level? 0ppm
Nitrite Level? 0ppm
Nitrate level? 5ppm
Ph Level? 8.0
Temp? 20C

The tap water is pH 7.2 straight out of the tap and 8.4 after 24 hours standing.

The hardness of the tap water that had stood out was very slightly harder than straight out of the tap (1 drop of solution more needed).

So far its been recommended that i leave new water for a water change out for 24 hours before the water change but is there anything else i need to do to get these conditions better? Someone mentioned something about baking soda?

Sorry, for not having much of a clue, its been a steep learning curve! I think i understand the basics of the nitrate cycle but still have no clue about the relationship between pH GH and KH, or even really the difference between KH and GH, or how that affects the cycle.

Thanks for your help and patience while i work this out

Rachel

Yea, I hand transfer my goldies. with happy water it should heal just fine.

Nope, you don't need to add baking soda (sodium bicarbonate). People add baking soda to increase KH to keep pH from getting acidic.

KH is your carbonate hardness. It's primarily bicarbonates. Your biofilter releases acids a part of the process of converting ammonia to nitrAte. The bicarbonates in the water buffer (combine with) the acids and keep them from lowering pH.

GH is general hardness. primarily calcium and magnesium. Goldies like hard water cuz it makes it easier to maintain osmostic pressure (keep from taking on too much water).

I think your goldies should be fine with your water the way it is.

If you're not doing a huge water change, I don't think it should matter if you let the water sit out or not.

So the high KH figure stops my water getting more acidic as the nitrate cycle works and the high GH is good because it helps the goldfish maintain their osmotic pressure - those two aren't directly linked then? (KH & GH)

Is a pH of 8 something ok or is it too alkali? do i need to do anything about it?

Thanks soo much for all your help, i'm sure i'll be back asking more questions but its all beginning to make sense why i'm testing all these things and what it means when they change. Is there a rough 'window' these figure should fall into?

KH and GH, higher is better or can water be 'too hard'?
pH - not sure whats best here.
Ammonia and Nitrites 0ppm?
Nitrates less than 20ppm?
Temp?

Thank-you

Rachel

Yep.. and yea... Usually hard water is well buffered.

pH of 8 is on the high end of things. Some of the geekier koi folk keep their pH buffered up to pH of 8.3 so they don't have to worry about pH swings. I'd think it would also be fine for goldies. Personally I'd leave it and base whether to mess with pH on how the goldies act, cuz when you dink around with pH, there tends to be pH swings and I think stability is more important that absolute values.

Generally KH needs to stay over 4dh to keep pH from getting acidic.
Higher KH -> higher pH.

ammonia and nitrIte = 0ppm
nitrAte under 40ppm (tho there is leeway there, but lower is better)

Here's a summary from Dr Tim's Library on water quality. How bout you do a web search and post back what you find on recommendations for what pH range and hardness works for goldies? I should have kept the info I found last time I searched.
Here's a couple from a quick search:
Fishdoc UK says GH 100-300
http://www.fishdoc.co.uk/water/hardness.htm
Pond doc says pH 6.8-8 and GH 50-150.
http://www.ponddoc.com/WhatsUpDoc/WaterQua...parameters.html

lol at KH over 4 when mines 13, i don't think i need to worry about that at the moment!

Thanks for the links, i'll read those properly as soon as i get time.

I think for now with the pH, i'll keep letting the water stand before water changes so there isn't a drop in pH with the new water and see how the fish are.

New filter has nearly arrived, hopefully i'll be installing it this weekend then more careful monitoring while i see how long it takes to cycle.

Will running the old filter whilst the new filter is building up bio bugs help or slow down the process because that filter is removing the ammonia needed to start the cycle? Or would i do better to just take the filter media out of the old filter (a single piece of blue foam stuff) and put it in the new one somehow and just run the new filter?

I don't want to excessivly stress the fish by cycling the tank more than necessary.

Thanks for your help,

Rachel

Ok, i have just tested the pH of the water thats been standing for 24 hours and its 7.4 this time, the tank is 8 still. Should i use this water or not? I haven't tested for other things yet.

Sorry for all the questions,

Rachel

It should be fine as long as you're not doing a huge partial water change.

I think you'd be fine either way... continuing the run the old filter while the new one gets up to speed, or putting the media from the old filter in the new one.

I just got a copy of Fancy Goldfish by Doc Johnson and Rick Hess. I'll post info this evening on what Doc J says about pH and hardness.