What happens if your ph takes a leap instead of a gradual increase due to water treatment?

I have been adding Baking Soda to my tank for the last 2 days because my ph was down so low ( see "blind" in the disease and diagnosis forum). My ph went up from 6.2 to 6.8 the first day, The next morning it had dropped to 6.4 so i added more BS. It went to 7 that day. Yesterday morning it dropped backdown to 6.4 I added another 2 tablespoons and went off to work. Came home and my tank was so cloudy I could barely see the fish in it. The ammonia level was back off the chart, The PH is at least 7.4 could be higher. Nitrites jumped from .25 between 1-2

Also because my Ammonia level was so high to begin with, I have been doing 4-5 gal water changes the last couple days to try to drop it down. I seemed to be making progress with bringing down the ammonia before this.

Did I cause my tank to recycle making all this mess? I did not do a water change yesterday because of a local problem with a fire hydrant. We are to presently boil water for 48hrs till the water lines clear themselves out.


My tank description...
54gal bow corner tank
2 280 emperor bio filters
gravel base - large pebbles or small rocks
planted
6 gf from 3.5" to 6"
2 clown plecos one chinese algea eater 5 hong kong( or butterfly) plecos
(Flying fox was moved to other tank because he didn't look so good)



Water right from tap....
ammonia 0
Nitrites 0
nitrates 0
ph surpasses the 7.4 on the color chart (deeper blue)
kh 3
gh 6-7


Tank water this morning....
Ammonnia 8 STILL
nitrites 2
nitrates 40
ph 7.4
kh 5
gh 18


It seems that every time I try to fix one part of my gf tank everything else goes wacko and the water clouds up! I'm soooo frustrated!!!

Oh yeah....I forgot to mention that I set my tank up this past Nov.

Wow, that sure sounds like a bad roller coaster ride! What comes immediately to mind is the ammonia/pH connection.
You see, with lower pH any ammonia present in the tank is less to non toxic, and with higher pH the present ammonia becomes a lot more toxic. With the sudden rise in pH your ammonia has gone way over the roof.
There is a whole picture to be looked at when dealing with pH issues. The kH reading being one of them. The lower the kH reading is, the more unstable your pH is going to be. By raising the kH, you will have a much more stable pH. Your tap water has 7.4 or higher, but the kH looks a bit on the low end. When the water comes out of the tap and gets to settle down (in the tank in your case), the pH will adjust to the kH, hence is dropping. I wonder if there is anything decor wise in your tank that adds on to the unstable pH as well. Any driftwood or rocks in the tank that aren't meant to be for aquarium use? Driftwood in general will lower the pH over time, especially with a low kH to begin with.

What I would do right away to bring the ammonia down is doing water changes, water changes, oh and yeah, did I mention water changes? You can do them safely up to 2x a day, and since the ammonia is SO high, they can be massive. Something around 50%. Something that helps greatly along in converting ammonia to a nontoxic version is water conditioner. Do you use any at the moment? That really helps along big time - it converts ammonia into a non toxic version, a lot less harmless to the fish, but still there to "feed" the good bacteria in the filter. Something like Prime, Amquel Plus...anything that says "converting" or "removing" ammonia on the bottle. Your petstore should have a wide selection of water conditioner.
I realize you have that boil order going on, which isn't helping since you need larger amounts of water readily available for the water changes. Is there a chance you can get a bigger garbage container (around 20-30 gl, and unused? That will hold a large amount of water you can use for the water changes. It sounds like a lot of hard work to boil all that water, and a conditioner will definetely relief a lot of the effects of the high ammonia on the fish....

When the ammonia is down again, we need to look at the choices you have to slowly raise your pH in the tank. Baking soda is good as a short term solution, but you have to add and add every time. There is something called crushed coral, which you can get in a pet store that carries marine fish. That stuff raises pH slowly, you can put it into a mesh or piece of panty hose inside your tank, anyplace you please, and it will do its pH stabilizing job for many weeks and months to come before you ever have to think about it again. Try adding one cup, have it in the tank for a day, test the pH, and add more if it isn't at accepable levels. Remember, one cup at the time...
Keep us posted - I hope that boil order is lifted soon!

So did your pH drop over time? crash maybe? I wouldn't doubt that it did given your fish load and tap water KH levels. If it did, that would explain the biobugs getting unhappy. They don't like really low pH.

I definitely agree on a series of large partial water changes to get ammonia down. I also wouldn't buffer with baking soda at the moment for the very reason Andrea mentioned. ammonia is much less toxic at lower pH. With pH of 7, ammonia of 4ppm isn't that toxic. However at pH of 7.5, the same amount of ammonia is very toxic.

Also, since you're seeing nitrItes, I'd add salt at 1 teaspoon per gallon of water. predissolve in tank water and make sure it disperses well when you add it. Be sure to use non-iodized salt with no other additives. NitrIte is toxic. It enters thru the gills and binds up the red blood cells keeping them from being able to carry oxygen. Salt helps protect against nitrIte poisoning because it competes with nitrIte for uptake thru the gills. I'd maintain that level of salt till the biobugs catch up and nitrIte falls to 0ppm.

Amquel or Prime would help. I'd go with prime if you can find it, cuz even tho amquel detoxes more ammonia I've had trouble with amquel eating up KH. We could overcome that effect with baking soda.

FYI, with the size of your tank, 1 teaspoon of baking soda should increase KH by 1dh. I'd only buffer with baking soda if pH falls below 6.5.. and then I'd only bring pH up to 7 till ammonia starts dropping.

the only ornament in my tank is a treasure chest that is open on the bottom and the two long sides. Water flows freely through it so there is no chance of stagnant water. It allows the chinese algea eater and the flying fox a place to hide and chase each other around. Other than that it is all plants. Since I am still a newby I can upload a picture.


I guess I'm going to have to do the BIG water change. I was hoping that by doing a small on a daily basis would help bring the ammonia down but it doesn't seem to be working. I have also been using AmmoLock to help detoxify the ammonia.

Wont I crash my tank with excessive water changes causing it to recycle? Or am I past that point and my tank is recycling again anyway?

I don't think your ammonia test will give accurate readings with ammolock.

Looks to me like you are cycling again.

I stopped the ammolock since my ammonia was still high

was hoping that i would avoid the recycling by doing small changes but I guess I messed up that one.


Thanks for all your help. I'll just keep checking the parameters, do small water changes and pray a lot. Maybe someday they settle down again.

You did say that you coud do up to 2changes a day...Right?

I did partial water changes a couple of times a day at times when I was cycling. If you vacuum, just skim the surface, don't disturb the gravel.

The thing is, with ammolock in the water, you don't know what your ammonia reading are till you change enough water to remove most of it. Are you using another ammonia binder?

I'm stilll learning all this stuff....what is an ammonia binder? My filters have an extra cartridge for adding charcoal. I use Pro-Carb Z that has ammonia Removing Zeolite crystals in it. I was also recommended to use bio glass cylindar but I haven't found it locally yet. Is this what you are referring too?


Check my ammonia again this morning and it's up. Ph has dropped to 7.2 I have been doing 5-9gal water changes since the "boil the water" restriction was lifted and the ammonia still isn't comming down!

Oh yea...i was going to ask and forgot. Which is better crushed coral or crushed shells?

crushed coral and crushed oyster shell are made from Calcium Carbonate CaCO3 and Magnesium Carbonate MgCO3. I don't know that one's better than the other.

ammmonia binders (e.g. prime, amquel, etc) convert ammonia to it's non-toxic form (ammonium).

Zeolite sucked ammonia into its pores and holds it there. Be aware that if you salt with zeolite in the tank, it will cause the zeolite to release ammonia back into the water.

I don't usually salt with every water change, but this is good to know because I have been adding a little salt with my changes this past week. I am hoping to go out on my lunch hour today and check my lfs for some prime or amquel.

Need to get back to work ..so I'll check back later

found the prime and added to the tank yesterday evening, after a 10gal water change. Checked water this a.m. PH is at 7:00 and Ammonia level if off the chart again. <_<: Will do nitrate and nitrite later.

Now, with the prime the ammonia in there is non toxic, Right? Everyone seems fine and the water is clear with a touch of cloudiness. I can see through to the back.

How often can I use the prime? I read the lable and it doesn't indicate. Should that be caculated with each water change, adding to the new water, now that I have applied the initial "whole tank" application? Or do I do the water changes and reapply to the whole tank? I am doing about 9-10gal with each water change twice a day if I can.

The ammonia that prime detoxes won't show up on the ammonia test.
based on other people's experiences with ammolock, you won't be able to get accurate readings till it's out of the tank.

With your pH, you should be ok on ammonia unless it really is thru the roof. The prime people say you can dose up to 5 times the standard dose if you have stuff in the water for it to detox. If you do dose more than the standard dose, keep an eye out for ocygen seeking behavior as the chemical in prime reduces O2 saturation in the water. That effect is more pronounced at higher temperatures.

I think I'd do 50% partial water changes for several days to try and get the ammolock out of the water (dosing prime for the entire volume of the tank each time), so you can see what your ammonia levels are.

Okay thanks. I'll do the 50% water change when I get home today.

Thanks for all your help. I'll keep posting my progress.

Cool!

After a 50% water change yesterday evening and cleaning both filter intake tubes (only) my parameters are:

Ammonia 4.0
Nitrate 5.0
Nitrite 0.5
ph dropped 6.5 - I added 1 tsp of baking soda this morning but wasn't able to do the check before leaving for work.

Will do another 50% this evening to help reduce the residual AmmoLock...or will that be too much on the tank and fish? I know I read that I can do up to 2 50% water changes a day.

At least I finally feel like I'm getting somewhere with that ammonia

That should be fine. just don't disturb the gravel or filter pad.
I'd bring pH up to 7.

Ammonia this A.M was still 4.0 (I was unable to do the 50%water change again last night)

PH dropped 6.4 so I added 1.5tsp of baking soda. Took the ph again before I left for work (about 45mins later) and it was at 7.0

I understand that as a tank ages, the ph will drop ...but will I have to add baking soda, from this point on, with every water change, to keep it around 7?

Cool.

yes, with KH of 3 coming out of the tap, you'll either need to buffer with baking soda or use oyster shell or coral.

How are things going?

I did a 2nd 50% waterchange Thursday night and again added Prime to the tank

This a.m. the parameters were....
Ammonia .25 - .50 It was about there yesterday too
Nitrates 5.0 - 10 yesterday- about there too
Nitrites 0.0 -.25 yesterday -a more solid .25
PH 7.0 yesterday - down 6.6-6.8 and I added 1tsp of baking soda

I will keep checking daily for changes. Also, every day I ask my son if he's fed the fish so that we don't double feed again.

The gf's seem pretty happy swimming vigorously around the tank.

I have a question in the Tank Equipment forum about UGF's. The same person that recommended that I have one also told my husband that I should NEVER do more than a 10% water change even with the problems I was having. I have to say that I can't agree with her. That may be good when the tank is holding steady but with the spikes and dips I just went through, the small changed didn't seem to work. I really think the larger 50% was better in my situation to help remove the ammonia problem.


I cannot express my gratitude for the help you gave me. I know that gf are pretty hardy but I was worried that with my tank conditions they would weaken and start with infections which may lead to me loosing one or two. Not to mention what the conditions may do to their "working class" tank mates.


THANK YOU THANK YOU THANKYOU.

Awsome!!!

If ammonia is on its way down, I'd start buffering the pH up to 7.6 or 7.8. slowly over several days.

Since you're seeing nitrIte, I'd add the salt at 1 teaspoon per gallon of water. predissolve in tank water and make sure it disperses well when you add it. Be sure to use non-iodized salt with no other additives. NitrIte is toxic. It enters thru the gills and binds up the red blood cells keeping them from being able to carry oxygen. Salt helps protect against nitrIte poisoning because it competes with nitrIte for uptake thru the gills. When you do partial water changes just add 1 tsp of salt per gallon changed to maintain the salt levels. When the tank's cycled (both ammonia and nitrIte at 0ppm and nitrAte rising) just stop adding the salt and your partial water changes will eventually remove it.

I'm glad everyone is doing well!! That's cuz they have a good fishie mama!

My parameteres are holding steady....


yesterday and this a.m.

ammonia 0
Nitrates 10
Nitrites 0
ph 7.0 added 1sp BS this morning

Awsome!!

So are you going to stick with buffering with baking soda to keep pH from getting acidic or are you going to add crushed coral or oyster shell?

Right now I'm doing the baking soda thing till I can find the crushed coral in my area. About 1tsp a day ...I don't want to do another leap in ph like I did the last time. That was a scary ride I went on! This morn Ph was still at 7.0

Am watching my parameters daily right now. Just making sure there aren't any sudden changes again. Params are hold steady otherwise.

Sound like a good plan!