Although I have been seeing this for a few months now I have never paid any spl attention to it until now when I read various sites about ORP and various water conditioners resulting in oxygen deprivation at times...My fish gasp for a few days after each PWC. Not too severe but it does strike my eye.

I have been using Aquasafe till now and am planning to shift to Prime since it has a higher % of sodium Hydroxymetahnesulphonate to take care of additional ammonia besides those released at the time of chloramine break up. But now I read that Prime can also lead to oxygen depletion if the temp. is > 80F or if there is no chloramine or ammonia or nitrite in the tank. My tank reads zero for ammonia and NO2 also. I dont know if my tap water has chloramines in it. I have mailed the water board and await their reply.

My tap water PH is 7.5 and the water board adds CO2 to lower the PH. My tank ph is 8.0. So I let my water sit for 3 days till ph reaches 8.0 by the time of PWC. I assume in this time the chloramines shld also be gone as the water is left to set. In that case, I will have no NH3/NO2/ chloramines. So if I use Prime will it prove detrimental? Or will my NH3 readings in my tank (as per the dataguru calculator of Ph and temp) of .013 be enough for Prime to bind. Or am I better off using Aquasafe instead.

I always used to wonder why my fish suraface much more after the PWC and would even out after 3-4 days and by the 7th day there is no surfacing. By which time it is again time for PWC and the whole cycle repeates itself. What could be the solution? I write this since I saw the same issue with dataguru at the Sodium Thiosulphate thread and wondered how she dealt with it.

I thot about adding an air stone in the water that I leave to set so that the O2 level gets high. But I'm also worried about gassing off whatever lilttle CO2( 1.5 ppm) is there in it for my plants. Would Flourish exel take care of this deficiency?

Thnx in advance. And sorry fro the long post.

Chloramine won't dissipate like chlorine does from just sitting out.

I'd bet that any water conditioner that uses sodium hydroxymethanesulfonate has the issues with lowered O2. Logically since Prime has more of it than does Aquasafe, it should have more of an O2 depletion effect especially if there isn't ammonia, etc to detox. If you don't have chloramines in your source water, consider switching to a Sodium Thiosulfate conditioner. Sodium Thiosulfate isn't supposed to reduce O2 saturation like sodium hydroxymethanesulfonate does.

You're definitely right to be concerned about ammonia with a pH of 8. On the flip side, Roddy Conrad wrote an article that argues that unless your source water is loaded with chloramines and you do large partial water changes, the ammonia released probably isn't anything to worry about. see: http://www.wernersponds.com/water_changesxxx.htm
I built a calculator in MS Excel that lets you figure out how much ammonia is released based on amout of water changed and chloramine levels, and how much of that is in its toxic form.
http://dataguru.org/misc/aquarium/Converter.xls
You should be able to get the average chloramine levels from your city's annual water quality report.

I'm a little confused. You indicated that ammonia in the tank is 0ppm but then mention using Ph and temp and have .013ppm NH3. What am I missing?

Increasing surface agitation couldn't hurt. What's your tank temperature? water holds more O2 at lower temps. and yes, Excel should provide the carbon your plants need. You're probably going to need to go that route or add CO2 for your plants with pH at 8 cuz you won't have much CO2 dissolved with pH that high.

Another option is setting up a Walstad natural planted tank. She just tops her tanks off for evaporation and does partial water changes only like every 6 months. I'm seriously considering going that route for the goldie tank. He book Ecology of the planted aquarium is a heavy, but good read.

Thnx for the cholramaine bit. I thot so too but wasnt sure since the conditoner actually breaks the bonds and they shldnt be getting broken by just letting the water "sit out". Then all the companies might as well pack bags as far as selling conditioners go!! Also when people say" let the water sit so the toxins go out, " do u know how that works? Just curious!!

I dont know about the ammonia bit myself and would love it if u can shed some light. My chemistry is bad. Now the salicyclate based test shows me NH3 = 0mg/l. But if I am not mistaken fish breathe out some NH3 thru their gills as a natural process. By that logic I shld have ammonia in my tank or am I missing something. (does the filter handle that load?) Also as per ur chart also at ph 8.0 and temp at 24C I have .013 ammonia.
If u decide there is ammonia then Prime shldnt prove so detrimental? And if u decide there is no ammonia and if the water board says no chloramines then which conditioner shld I use? I wonder which ones are Sodium Thiosulpahate conditioners?

My tank temp is 24C. Not becoz the heater heats it but the lighting warms up the tank to that temp. But I have set the thermostat at 24 so that it doesnt dip at night when I shut the radiators downstairs. BTW is there an O2 calculator like the CO2 one. Would be very handy indeed!!! How much O2 do u expect is there in my tank . The tank params remain at kh 5-5.5, PH 8, NH3 0, NO2 0, NO3 20.

Also I was talking of aerating the water I set out for my PWC in the rubbermaid tub so it reaches the tank Ph of 8. Do u think it will help the O2 depletion when I add the conditioner or just increasing the tank aeration shld be sufficient?

Sorry for asking so many questions but knowing how it works just keeps getting more interesting

As far as I know, letting water sit out allows gasses and chlorine to escape.



Ammonia is produced all the time by the fish and the bacteria the eat the debris in the tank. After the biobugs get up to speed, they consume the ammonia as fast as it's produced so it reads 0ppm on test kits. When total ammonia is 0ppm then NH3 is 0ppm. What chart are you referring to?

Yea, if you don't have chloramine and the biobugs are taking care of the ammonia a ST conditioner would work fine. It would probably even work fine if you do have chloramines, depending on the size of the partial water change and how much chloramines are in the water. In that case aquasafe should handle that. The thing I worry about is prime having more of an effect on O2 levels than aquasafe since it has more SH in it. There's a thread on what water conditioners have what in them in the water conditioner section here:
http://dataguru.org/misc/aquarium/FishInfo.html#WaterQuality



That would be cool, but I haven't seen anything like that.



Airating the tub would probably cause the pH to move to 8 faster cuz it'd gas out the CO2 faster. I don't know that it would help with O2 levels.

If you're seeing O2 seeking behavior, I would add more surface agitation. one of those powerheads with an adjustable venturi tube would give you the most gas transfer. lowering the water line to where the outflow from the filter splashes onto the surface of the water would also help. a bubble wand would help. I think some of the cannister filters have spray bars for returning water to the tank. Lowering water temp will let the water hold more O2.

I'm amazed at how complex water can be.

was just wondering... Have they been de-fluked?

I dont know if this is pure coincidence but I saw one of my fish's tail twitch today. It twitched not once or twice but a few times. It suddenly appeared as if it had something wrecking its central nervous system. The tail just beat up and down in a spasm. It sent my heart racing. It seemed to be doing fine to me. Is the greediest when it comes to feeding, poop is normal, thick and dark, dorsal is up no flashing. Iam at a loss what is the matter. But my vigil has begun!! And I was wondering how long this bliss would last So what do u think is up? Do u think and slight excess of Flourish exel can cause it?

What do u mean by 'defluke'. Was I supposed to. And if yes, when and why was i to do it?

My water board hasnt replied to the chloramine question. Thus...I had just ordered a big bottle of Prime going by all that i had heard on this forum

I have read that thread so many times which is from where I got whatever little info I have. I never miss ur threads on this forum. Plenty info just waiting for those seeking it.

I often wonder, here we have issues of chemistry and what not with our tanks and just look at the oceans and seas....Wow, makes u amaze at the beauty of nature

Check out Pauls article on treating flukes over in the treatment forum. There are also some good articles on flukes at Doc Johnson's site and the Univ of Florida extension service. Some are linked from the diseases section here: http://dataguru.org/misc/aquarium/FishInfo.html#Diseases

I have not found any research on it, but everyone says that flukes are common in goldies. They have little hooks that open up wounds where bacterial infections can take hold. They can also mess up the gills. Symptoms usually include flashing and some other things. I treated my tank and all new goldies with praziquantel (Prazi pro from goldfish connections), cuz it's very safe to use and I'd rather be safe than sorry.

Do they have their annual water quality report up on the city's website?

If you do have any ST based water conditioner you'll know if you have chloramine if you use it to dechlorinate and then test for ammonia. If ammonia shows up, then they are using chloramine.

Do u think i have flukes???waahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!

I have read pauls fluke treatment and its nothing shrt of a herculean effort. Boy after reading that I told myself " God I will be done for if any of my fish get it". I DONT GET PRAZI!!!!!! and this was in early Jan. Reading that thread gives me goose bumps. And it takes a Paul to kill those slimy buggers I tell you!! And I aint even close...

R u serious This fish has flukes? I think my sleep just flew out of the window!!!!

Sorry, actually i didnt mean to make it sound as if Paul's the only guy who can get rid of it. But the treatement of Prazi bombarding seems to daunting and the bucket to bucket and all I think Paul can easily patent it. Plus from what I have read of it it just takes one larva to survive and the battle begins all over again. I thot Thats one disease I dont want to my fish get.

Thnx dataguru for all the info on other threads. Reading is always interesting.

Take a deep breath. I dunno. just being curious.

From what I've read, you should see them flashing and scratching if they have flukes. gasping for air is another symptom if their gills aren't happy... that's what made me ask since it's supposedly so common for goldies to have flukes. Using prazi really isn't difficult. It's one of the safer drugs around.

I'm considering praziing my goldie tank again. My chocolate oranda is acting skittish. everyone else is acting fine. I scraped him and didn't see anything that looked like a fluke, so I did a huge partial water change and am in watch and wait mode.

Goldfish connections ships to only as far as Peurto Rico. Sad. I dont see that fish flashing or scratching. I guess I will just wait and watch. fingers crossed .