man have I missed this place! Ok, so on the 1st, out of the blue, Gill had a bunch of nasty blood under his "arms" (pectoral fins), and a little bit under his belly...the next day it was much worse, especially under his belly. Some people at another board told me to treat for septicemia (I couldn't find a vet that treats fish)...so, I added "fungus clear" fizz tabs from Jungle because it says it treats septicemia, and other bacterial infections. They seem to work well, the very next day the blood was all gone(huge relief)..but the problem is, Gill's poop is still white and stringy. I also have been feeding medigold for almost a month now, but his poop isn't clearing up. So, I have some anti parasite medicated food in the mail now, should be here on tuedsay. But my question is, I have some anti parasite meds, should I add that to the water after i get all the septicemia meds out?
AND... I think the septicemia was brought on by the PH...for some reason unknown to me,the ph in my tank keeps going up really high...it went up to 8.8 at one point. I have NEVER had a problem with high ph before, and I don't know why it is suddenly going high. I managed to get it back down to about 7.2, but it is rising again.
all my other levels, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, etc...are normal.

Try adding your own acid buffer to the water, the main thing is to keep it stable, ups'n'downs are not good.

It's been a month so I would stop feeding medicated food, perhaps the lack of healthy bacteria in the gut is now causing the white poos.

As long as your fish doesn't get any worse, give all medications a break for a while and allow your fish to regain it's own internal balance. Stabilise your water and the fish may sort out it's own problems.

If you see no improvement after a fortnight of stabilised pH and no medication then by all means give the anti-parasite meds a try. Sometimes it's best to be prudent if you don't know exactly what you are trying to fix, random medicating can be harmful itself. Good luck.

ok, thank you. Would you recomend using one of those ph things that bring the ph to a certain level? like the bullseye 7.5 or something?

Gosh, Gil's still having issues, huh?

Be very careful about making changes to your pH. It would be highly advisable to remove gil from the tank, treat the tank with the buffer of your choice, and then acclimate him to the new pH value very slowly. You can do this by adding small amounts of your newly fixed tankwater to the container that your temporarily housing him in. Remember, small amounts at a time so that the pH changes as slowly as you can.

To help us figure out what exactly you need to treat your water with, What is the kH and pH of your tapwater?

Do you know about ammonia, free ammonia and pH? At higher pH values, there is more harmful ammonia available than at a lower one. Basically, when you have a good solid pH of 7-7.5 you can have around 1ppm of ammonia on your test kits and none of it will be the toxic form so none of it can harm Gil. At a pH of 8.8 pretty much any ammonia at all will be in the toxic form. This might have played a role in Gil contracting septicemia.

Can you order some pro-biotics from goldfish connection? They have exactly what you need after a round of antibiotics (waterborne or food) here's the link: Goldfish Connection

That great that you were able to get the septicemia under control. Now you just need some fine tuning.

Post back soon.

The ph of the tap is about 7.5 (give or take)...he got the bleeding after the ph came down, so I figured it might have been the fluxuation that was the problem. I am trying my best to keep it steady. I was testing the ammonia along with the PH and it always showed 0 (does that mean there can still be ammonia in the water?)
-I have a kh tester on the way in the mail..should be here tuesday.
-I did another 30% water change today, and the PH is find so far...it tends to stay for a day or two and then starts to rise...should I get a buffer of a 7 or a 7.5? which is best for goldies? I read somewhere that it is 7.5.
(I will try to order that food from goldfish connection also)
-plus, he still has the white spots on his tail, do you think it could parasites? I started noticing the white poop when the spots got a little worse, and since the antibiotics don't seem to be working, I thought maybe I should try anti parasite. This poor fish, I just want him to get better and be able to enjoy himself

while I'm at it, is there anything else I should order from the goldfish connection? since i'm paying shipping, i'd rather order more than just 1 thing. what about that "buff it up" stuff? will that help the pH ...or prime?

Don't those dollars start to add up!

Yep, order the acid buffer, as Toothless suggested remove your fish while you adjust the pH in your tank. Just add a bit at a time until you get the desired result.

Slowly add the buffer tank water to your fishies bucket (or whatever it is) a little bit at a time, over a couple of hours so your fish can get used to it.

Hope this is all it takes to fix your problems.

actually, we'll need the results from your kH test kits before you do anything to the water besides waterchanges (do 50% a day until you recieve the test kit).

Because you've gopt an excellent pH value from the tap, you might wind up just needing to add crushed coral or oyster shells to your filter. A low kH is easily remedied like this without tweaking the actual pH from the tap.

I've got a feeling that perhaps the spots on his tail are related to the water chemistry. As you may know, it only takes a little bit of stress to set off a whole slew of different problems.

Being that you have treated with salt numerous times, I would have to say that parasites may not be involved. Just to be sure, Any chance you can pick up a cheapo microscope from somewhere like nnnnnn? I know for a fact that they sell a telescope/microscope combo for 20-30 dollars. the microscope is sufficient enough to positively identiy ich, flukes, costia, chilodonella and trichodina.

Keep up th waterchanges and updates....

I'm a bit confused Paul, doesn't crushed coral increase kH and alkalinity/pH? Aren't we trying to lower Grain's pH.

If her pH is coming out of the tap near 7.5 all she needs is for the kH to be at an optimal level to hold it there. Crushed oyster shells isn't goingt o raise her ph any, just the kH.

I think you might be confusing the fact that baking soda will raise kH and alkalinity, not crushed oyster shells.

At least, that how I understand it. Have I missed something?

my ph is still holding good maybe I won't have to do a water change today.

I would do one anyway. It's very good to have the safe zone that a waterchange will provide. You know, just in case the pH changes in between tests. Remember, even a small jump in pH throughout the day can cause stress (reduced immune activity) and allow bacteria (or parasites) an easier time invading.

If you can try at least 25% waterchanges each day til we can get your kH problems sorted out. Honestly, this is your best bet to make sure he doesn't have a relapse.

Let us know as soon as you get your kit in the mail, I've got a feeling that oyster shells will be the cure for your woes in the pH department. And who knows, once that is quelled, maybe his bacterial problems will disappate as well.

Good luck!

okey dokey, i'll do that. Thanks

I think I missed something. B)

I thought coral and baking soad had the same effect on pH/kH. Thanks.

Baking Soda (sodium bicarbonate) will raise the KH levels of water without raising the GH levels. Oyster shells, coral, limestone, marble chips, etc. (calcium carbonate) will raise both GH and KH.

With tap water checking 7.5 PH or so out of the tap and then raising after a day or two, chances are the tap water contains carbonic acid (CO2) and the PH rises as the CO2 is degassed from the water. You can check the concentration of C02 with a test kit or by putting some tap water in a bucket, without any dechlorinator, and checking the PH. Circulate the water in the bucket with an air-stone or pump for a day or two and then check the PH again. If the PH rises CO2 is the likely cause.

If CO2 is the cause of the rising PH, adding either sodium bicarbonate or calcium carbonate to the tank water will make the situation worse and cause the PH to rise even higher.

Stability is the key when dealing with PH. Although the mentioned PH level of 8.8 is a bit excessive, goldfish can thrive in water with a PH of 8.2/8.3. Use the results from the CO2 test, listed above, and determine what the natural PH of your tap water is. If it's in the low 8's leave it alone... Your fish will be much happier in stable 8.2/8.3 PH water than if they are constantly trying to adjust to fluctuating PH levels.

Rick

can someone please tell me exactly what GH and KH are?

Check out this article, It explains GH and KH without getting overly technical.

Rick

http://faq.thekrib.com/begin-chem.html

I was reading that thread last night Rick, it's a goody but I'm still confused. I'm sorry but my brain just goes round in circles when I try to figure these things out - there must be a short circuit somewhere.

I hope no-one minds if I ask a question on this thread, I'd be interested in your opinions.

My pH out of tap is 7. After 24hrs (in a test tube) it is still 7. I add gf conditioning salts (no buffer) that slightly raises the pH and I used to get stable readings in my tanks 7.2 - 7.5.

The last month or so my pH isn't increasing with the addition of gf conditioning salts, after a week it sometimes even drops slightly below 7. I have started using Seachem Alkaline Buffer to get pH 7.5, the thing is I need to use full strength dose to get this reading. On the rare previous times I used it, I would get to 7.5 with only half the dose.

I thinkt there are two possibilities:

1. Water source now has lower KH than before.
2. High NitrAtes (nitric acid) is using up all my buffer.

Any other ideas?

I new I forgot to ask something! DOH!

Ricks spot on about the rise in pH possibly due to co2 buffering.

Rick, if I may ask you:

If she indeed has co2 as a buffer in her tapwater and it starts out at 7.5 and she has oyster shells added to her filter to raise kH (and gH, wich is probably low anyway), wouldn't the pH remain where it started at once the co2 dissapated. I mean, her pH obviously stays stable for at least 24 hours in her tank (as described earlier).

Sorry if i'm adding any confusion to this thread, Being that I have always had rock steady params straight out of the tap, I can only go by what I've read.

Hmmmm, I think maybe it's time I moved this thread over to the water chemistry forum so that the experts on pH and kH can help you. I'm sure they understand this stuff better than I do.

Good luck!

do you have any carbon in the tank?
Some carbon can raise pH.

What about plants? Someone here had some issues with biogenic decalcification from plants that can use carbonates for their carbon source.

I don't think oyster shell will hurt. It doesn't dissolve unless pH falls below 7.5. so if it's in the tank, it should keep pH from slipping down.

Toothless, if I understand the relationship between PH, KH, and CO2 correctly, then if the amount of CO2 (whether as carbonic acid H2CO3 or free CO2) is reduced then the PH will rise. Or conversely, if the amount of CO2 is increased the PH will drop. How much of a rise or drop is determined by the KH level.

This is the basis of using CO2 injection to lower PH.

One reason grain's PH can remain stable for 24 hour or more could be the buffering chemicals (sodium carbonate or phosphates) the local water treatment facility is adding along with the CO2.

One thing that's for sure... We'll never be sure what's going on here unless grain posts the KH and GH levels of the tank and tap water.

See http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/CO2/khgh.html

Betty, biogenic decalcification would lower not raise the PH.

Rick

Ok, so I just did the test....

the Gh test took 8 drops
The KH test took only 2 drops

-so now what should I do?

and I don't know if this makes a difference or not..but straight out of the tap, the KH took 3 drops...the GH was the same as the tank.

Would you call the water company to see what they're adding to the water? With KH that low, your pH should not be increasing that much even if CO2 is gassing out.

do you have any carbon in the tank?
Some carbon can raise pH.

What about plants? Someone here had some issues with biogenic decalcification from plants that can use carbonates for their carbon source.

I think the reason the problems with the ph have just started recently is because the county switched where we get our water from...so I guess the water chemistry is different than it used to be.
-the only carbon in the tank is whatever comes in the filter cartriges, which are about 2 weeks old now
-no plants

An experiment would be useful here.
1) draw up a gallon of water and let it sit for 24 hours and then test pH
2) draw up a gallon of water, add an airstone and let it sit for 24 hours and then test pH
3) draw up a gallon of water, add one of your filters with carbon in it and let it sit for 24 hours and then test pH

Gee, isn't tapwater chemistry fun!

You know, the more I learn about water chemistry, the more questions I find myself with. I guess the learning curve is pretty steep here............. <_<

I would definitely ask for a water analysis sheet from your county water suppliers. If i'm not mistaken, they are required by law to submit at least a chart to you upon request. This way, their can be no doubt.

I have in front of me, an analysis of my tapwater supplied to me from the county. At the bottom, I have a result for "total dissolved solids". It says that it varies from 400 to 520ppm. Can I assume that This would be a general reading for gH??? Or is gH just a "part" of that reading?

I hope you get this stuff figured out soon. :crp

It is amazing isn't it how complicated water can be.

I doubt that's just GH. Do they give definitions of what total dissolved solids are? Look for calcium and megnesium. Those two make the largest contribution to GH.

my brain....it hurts
I feel like I'm back in chemistry class....too bad that was about 8 years ago, and I forget everything I used to know about chemistry :crp

Thanks Betty!

nah, nothing about calcium or magnesium. But there is a number to call for more info. I think I'll have to try them right when I get home tomorrow. I'm not having any problems, just curious.

so...after a water change last night, the ph in my tank has dropped to about a 7!
just now, the ph out of my tap is abut 7.8
after it has been airated overnight, 7
after just sitting there for a little while...about 7.5

-now..i can't figure out WHY the ph of the tank dropped so low and why the ph out of my tap is suddenly so high...this makes no sense at all.

meanwhile...I rescued a fish from wal mart yesterday, came home and set up my 10 gallon tank, and the PH in there has dropped to 6.8...ARGH!

That is weird. I expected to see pH increase in the water that was airated as CO2 was gassed out.

Your tap water isn't well buffered with a KH of 3dh. I think what I'd do would be to buffer with baking soda to get KH up and add crushed coral or oyster shell.

How big's the tank?

I just added crushed shells to one of my media baskets. I added some baking soda as well, but I don't want to raise the ph too much too fast. My tank is 30 gallons.
-the tank that dropped to 6.8 since yesterday is 10 gallons. I added baking soda to that one as well.

Is there something I can add to the tap water to prevent the ph from changing in the tank so much? like prime or that ph 7.5 stuff? I know all the ph ups and downs are not at all good for my fish.

ok. in your 30 gallon, about 1/2 teaspoon of baking soda will increase KH by 1dh. In the 10 gallon a scant 1/4 teaspoon should get you a 1 dh KH increase.

I think I'd buffer both tanks up to KH of 6 or 7 (taking it up about 1dh per day) and see if the oyster shell will take care of it from there. The shells should keep pH up around 7.5. as long as you don't do huge partial water changes that should work fine, tho you could still buffer your tap water up to like 5 or 6dh for partial water changes.

thank you. I am confused about the baking soda though. I understand the raising of the kh part...but the baking soda also raises ph...so, if i add that much baking soda, isn't it going to drastically up my ph? and isn't that bad for the fish?

That should gradually raise your pH up into the high 7s which isn't a problem. Don't add it all at one time... just increase KH 1 dh at a time, and then test pH and KH and let's see how it goes.

ok, got ya! Thank you

Ahhhh, thats what I've been waiting to hear. Your pH is finally dropping. When you were saying that your pH was rising, I was beginning to think that the shells wouldn't be able to do much for you. Now that the characteristic drop in pH is happening, the shells can start to do their trick. And the baking soda is great to have on standby as well (just in case). Also, just so you know, you can get crushed oyster shells as "chicken grit" or "bird grit" in 30 pound bags and larger. With that, you can cut out the painstaking process of crushing your own shells.


Betty, I have been doing some browsing on your site and I really must tell you that the discussion about kH, pH and gH on the koivet board seriously helped my understanding a lot!

One question though, If the pH comes from the tap at 7.5 and is buffered by co2, once the co2 has disappated from a waterchange, will the pH rise as a result? Or will the added kH from the oyster shells be enough to hold it where its at?

yeah, i'm just confused as to why it raised so high for a month or so and now it is suddenly dropping......and i'm confused as to why the ph of my tap water suddenly raised too...but as long as I can keep it stable i guess it's ok. where can i get this "chicken grit" at?

From what i've read, feed stores and maybe even hardware stores that have a good bird feedng section. Or you might find it in the gardening dept of some shops. I'm not really sure. some research in your hometown might reveal a source.

As for your pH dropping in your tank, I suspect that it's due to the nitrification cycle. As you've probably already read, breaking ammonia on down the line to nitrates is an acidic process (wich is to say that it releases acids) the very low kH in your tapwater is getting used up rather quickly wich is allowing the pH to drop to more acidic levels.

Betty,

Am I correct in thnking that once the co2 buffer offgases, the pH climbs. But then when the little amount of kH there is is used up, the pH is falling? Hmmm, jeez, theres always questions when it comes to this subject.............. <_<

thanks, i'll check around in some feed stores and such. How often should I replace the shells?

-and I think I am starting to understand a little more about all this. But, what is it that uses up the KH again?

I found the crushed oyster shell at a feed store. $6 for 50 pounds.

Paul: yea.. that koivet thread was awsome. Roddy's a chemist.

Yea, that's my understanding as well. However with the pH going up as high as it was, it makes me think some other buffer was present.

is there anything else that I could add to the water besides baking soda to make it 'harder'?
I found a product that said this:
..."the easy way to add balanced calcium, carbonate buffer, and essential trace elements like strontium, magnesium, and barium to your marine or hard water aquarium. Aragamilk uses the power of aragonite for flash mineralization, "

I was reading that you could use plaster of paris. that is, if you dont mind dealing with lots of algae growth. As I understand it, that is one of the main arguments agianst using it in the thread I was talking about.

Betty, CaptK, What your takes on using POP as a kH source? Think it might be applicable in her situation?

Hows the params today, any change in the kH to speak of?

Are the shells in there now?

the shells are in. the KH is 3dh today instead of 2, so that's good. The ph has gone up just a tiny bit also. Now, I added the shells and the baking soda on the same day, so I don't know which one brought this up.
-actually, at 3 drops, the water is kinda right inbetween colors, so I'd say 3.5 drops does the trick completely. which is about 63ppm.

and...plaster of paris oh man!

Well, its most likely the baking soda that brought the pH up so I would imagine that the kH rise is due to the baking soda as well. As long as the pH stays 7.5 or below, the shells will begin to dissolve and release their payload.

POP will really raise GH and will only raise KH a little. Someone recently tried it out and posted what it did to their water.

Keep us posted on how it does.

From what I gather, it raised the kH overnight but, what about in the long term? I'm interested in future updates on this thread......