Okay. I always thought nitrAtes were harmless, because everything I was reading said they were.... However,I now know otherwise. I'm sure I am asking WAY to many questions for anyones sanity in this post, but I really need you help, otherwise all of my rescue fish I plan on adopting out-----eeeek, may die.

I just bought a product called Algone. According to the makers it is natural plant fibers that will dramatically reduces the ppm of nitrAtes. You just put it in your filter everyweek until the levels are where you want them, and then as a prevention, you put them in every two weeks. Since I have only been using it for 1 week, I don't know if it works yet, and I have estimated that it would cost me $120 per year at a prevention level.....

However, since I intend on keeping goldfish for as long as I live, wouldn't it be better if I were to invest upfront in live plants? here are where my questions spring up, but fist let me tell you about my tanks:

29 gal
20 gal
10 gal
10 gal
5 gal (betta)

None of these are overstocked...

Do any of you feel that live plants are extremely beneficial in nitrate reduction?
How beneficial? As in, on average, how many nitrAtes will plants consume weekly in a well planted tank? would I still occasionally have to change, say 1/2 of my water because of nitrAte buildup? (I have a BAD back and these last few week with all of these huge water changes have been killing me).

And just what do you consider "well planted?"
Therefore, how many plants do you think I would need PER each aquarium that I listed above to make the tanks well planted? (hmmm. based on the size of the plant, that might be a hard question to answer.... how about this: How much of the tanks bottom do you feel should be planted?)

Are there any FAST growing plants that GF DONT eat?

Can I divide plants to make more by cutting the root system in half once the plant is full grown?

Do you think $150 is enough money to by all of the plants I would need (of course it might not be when I first buy them because they would be small, but I mean after they become full grown.) If not, how much money are we talking here?

Does anyone know if marimo balls are good for this? do GF eat them?

An online reputible seller of aquarium plants?

My dad hase a HUGE pond that grows.... I don't know what it is.... a weird algae? its green and has a bunch of very "little" leaves all over it.... come spring, could I quarentine it, and use it in my tanks (It grows fast but I'm soooo not against giving it "haircuts" )? Or, would it turn my water green?---I DON'T want that!

VERY IMPORTANT: how do plants consume nitrAtes? through their leaves? though their roots? or perhaps both? you see, I was about to go "gravel-less." (well, a light covering of river rocks.....) but if the plants eat nitrates through the roots, I would have to keep my gravel, right?

Someone in here once gave me a fertilizer recipe to give to tank plants daily. however, if I want my plants to eat nitRates I shouldn't fertilize at all, right? maybe once a week?

Okay..... I think that was all of my questions.... And please, don't think I'm neurotic because of this post! I just love my fish!

I think this link would answer most of your questions

http://www.aquabotanic.com/plants_and_biol..._filtration.htm

Had to be Diane Walstad! Thanks for that link!

FYI, I just turned my 30 gallon bowfront into a natural planted tank ala walstad. I have like 2.5ppm ammonia in my tap water and without any colonized filters it took less than a day for ammonia to read 0ppm. nitrAte didn't change. I was amazed.

I still have issues with nitrAte building up in my heavily planted goldie tank. I'm thinking about turning it into a natural planted tank.

Hey betty.... what do you mean by switching over to a "natural" planted tank?

Okay... so then... if plants won't consume nitrAtes.... how do I get rid of them before all of my fish die---especially because I now know that nitrAtes are in my tap water?????

OH! and dataguru! did you mean "nitrate didn't change" as in it worked--that the nitrate levels didn't climb, or did you mean that it didn't change, because the levels remained high??? help? please?

Did you check out the bowfront link above?
http://dataguru.org/misc/aquarium/bowfront.html

A Walstad natural planted tank has a layer of topsoil, covered by a layer of gravel. lots of plants and mechanical filtration. The plants and biobugs in the soil almost instantly cycled the tank I set up.

NitrAtes were at 5ppm and I couldn't detect an increase after ammonia fell from over 2ppm to 0ppm in the tank.

Plants do use some nitrAte, but they prefer ammonia.
I read somewhere the other day with a high tech set up... lots o light, CO2 and an enriched substrate... which puts the plants into overdrive, you get about 5ppm nitrAte reduction per day. Some people with lightly stocked tanks, have to add nitrAtes. Doubt they have goldies tho! LOL

nitrAtes don't have to be 0ppm. you have leeway there.. Weekly partial water changes to keep nitrAte under 40ppm. lower is better... but it's not even close to being as toxic as ammonia or nitrIte..

I have scads of plants in my 55 gallon goldie tank and added a plant filter as well and they can't keep up with nitrAte production in the tank. I have to wonder if that's cuz the biobugs in the filters are getting to the ammonia before the plants do.

hey data do you have any info for zitra zorb from aquarium pharm? i just started to use it today

I'll jump in here I have a 66 gallon planted tank with five goldfish and I never have any nitrate showing. It is very heavily planted (almost the entire bottom). I fertilize daily and add nitrate

Oh! Bless your HEARTS!

I knew someone could help me!!! EurekA! How often will the topsoil need changed?

Hehehe.... sorry,I didn't know that was a link!!! Wow!

Will goldfish eat those plants in your bow-front? To make my tanks a walstad natural planted tank, do I have to stick specifically to those types of plants? Or, does it matter what types of plants I use?

( I just bought 2 anubias today, and Vivre munched on one of them--ruining two leaves..... she is such a turd! Therefore, I decided to buy the plants slowly--seeing which fish will eat them and which fish wont---so I don't end up wasting alot of money..)

Do I need special full spectrum lighting for my flourescent lights?

Also, my two ten gallons have natural lights (they are by my windows) and my five gallon betta tanks is the same way. is that okay?

one last thing here.... I just got to be sure I am following you correctly... you wrote that "NitrAtes were at 5ppm and I couldn't detect an increase after ammonia fell from over 2ppm to 0ppm in the tank." that means that the plants were consuming the nitrAtes, correct?

sorry. its me again...

I'm gonna have to "restart" my tanks again, aren't I? Like, empty them out, add the soil. add the gravel. add the plants. then the water. then the fish, right?

touchofsky: Wow! That's pretty amazing. I wonder if you feed less than I do. How big are your goldies? Got any pics? what kinda plants? how much light? co2?

Maud: I wouldn't jump into a Walstad-type natural planted tank without reading her book on it. You don't have to go that route to have plants do well.

Here's a page I put together on the plants in my goldie tank: http://dataguru.org/misc/aquarium/plantpics.html

The tank is a 66 gallon with 160 watts of fluorescent light. It is planted with hygrophila polysperma, vallesnaria, java moss, java fern, cryptocorne wendtii, rotala rotundifolia & nymphaea lotus.

I don't add CO2, but I do add Seachem Excel on a daily basis. I also fertilize daily with a homemade PMDD mixture. At the moment I am also dosing with a bit of extra potassium.

I have five goldfish in the tank, 7 white clouds and a bristlenose pleco. I will give the goldfish sizes for body length only without the tails included. They are:
one pom pom, who is about 3 1/2" long
one lionhead, who is also about 3 1/2" long
one bubble eye, who is about 4" long
two fantails, who are about 1 1/2" long

I feed twice daily. The morning feeding consists of ProGold pellets and a couple pieces of blanched zucchini.

The evening feeding varies. It can be veggies, spirulina pellets, homemade gel food, etc.

Here is a picture:

interesting... bout the same amount of wattage as I have. similar fish load.. yours is maybe a little heavier. You're adding carbon and ferts and I'm not (most of my plants are in a topsoil substrate). Hmmm... maybe since I havn't been able to find excel around here I oughta try DIY CO2 again.

So what's your PMDD recipe?

Could you repost the pic. I don't think it made the move to the new board.

Here's a current pic of my goldie tank.

Hi,
Your tanks looks absolutely fabulous! I don't know whether I would tamper with success

Here is the recipe for the PMDD (Poor Man's Dupla Drops)

1 tbsp. chelated trace element mix
2 tbsp. K2S04 (potassium sulfate)
2 tbsp. KN03 (potassium nitrate)
1 tbsp. MgS04.7H20 (fully hudrated magnesium sulfate, aka epsom salts; omit if already present in the trace element mix
300 ml distilled H20 (water)

(Most of the ingedients can be purchased at hydroponics shops or garden supply stores. Epsom salts are available inexpensively at pharmacies)

Dissolve the trace element mix in 150 ml distilled water, then add the remaining ingredients. Pour in additional water to make 300 ml solution. Keep mix in refridgerator and put small container near tank. Add enough mix to the tank every day to keep the Fe level at about 0.1 ppm. (the exact amount will have to be determined by experimentation, but 3 ml per 100 L of tank water is about the right for a tank with rapidly growing plants).

That is the recipe. I don't add the epsom salts since it raised my GH and KH which is already high. The chelated mix I use is called Chelated Micronutrient Mix by Plant-Prod. I bought all of the ingredients at a hydroponics shop.

I do not dose as highly as they recommend. I use 1 ml per day since I am not adding C02 and I wouldn't call my tank fast growing It was really a matter of trial and error to get the right amount of fertilization to get good growth with a minimum of algae.

Here is a picture of my tank.

Very nice!

What kind of filtration?

Is that a gravel substrate?

I went with the topsoil cuz I really want a low tech tank with the benefits of plants. Don't want to have to dink with it daily and worry with pH and CO2, etc. but it's not keeping nitrAte as low as I'd like even with the plant filter.

One of the things I'm wondering about is whether the plants pulling nutrients from the topsoil I have them planted in, means they're less likely to pull nitrAte from the water. I'll bet it does. If you're not using a nutrient rich substrate, I'd bet that's forcing the plants to take all their nutritients from the water resulting in them using more nitrAtes. Ammonia uptake via the leaves shouldn't be any different with the topsoil.

maniacholic: how's the nitro zorb thing working?

Yes, it is just a pure gravel substrate with no additives. Actually, I started this tank a couple of years ago, and I didn't really know much about planted tanks, so I just used gravel out of ignorance If I had it to do over again, I would do more research on the substrate and do it differently. However, now that it has been established and is doing well, I am just going to leave it until it starts to decline.

I use hob filters, an AquaClear and a Whisper, with just foam and floss.

BTW, I do use some "plant tab" type things under some of the rosette plants.