:crp
My tank has been running for about 3 months with gf loaded in the tank after the filter system is fully cycled (it took about 1 month to cycle). After running for 2 months, I cleaned the filter media in the first stage with 2nd stage containing bio ball, ceramic rings and course sponge untouced. The 2nd stage is a trickle filtration system.

After cleaning the 1st stage media the ammonia went up high to 1.5ppm and since then the ammonia level drops slowly to about 0.5ppm and it stays there for more than 2 weeks. It has been almost a month since I clean the media but the ammonia level cannot drop to zero. I am not sure how long will the bacteria takes to grow but the nitrate level is about 40ppm after 7 days of 30% water change. Nitrite is zero.

Is there any other ways to bring the ammonia down to zero? I would presume both good bacteria is present as nitrite is zero and presence of high nitrate. Could it be the filter is not running 100% capacity and how long will it take to fully run in? The water temp is constant at 29°-30°C. I now have 8 gf of 2.5" long after the demise of the big black ranchu and could the tank be overloded? My tank size is 260litres (70gal). I was hoping the tank settle down before I stock up another 2 big ranchu.
Any help appriciated.

Hi ranchu_man, Please do an ammonia test on your source water.

Interesting.
Personally I wouldn't add any more goldies with 8 in a 70 gallon tank.

It sounds to me like there isn't enough surface area in your 2nd stage biofiltration system to handle the bioload when you cleaned the mechanical filtration media. How'd you clean them anyhow? Could be cuz it's only 3 months old. could be not enough surface area. Could you tell is a bit more about your filter and post a pic if possible?

What's your pH?

Your water temp is pretty high. you have plenty of surface agitation going right?

Hi Captk,
I have tested the the tap water and reading is zero. I have also the hardness to be about 50ppm which is not hard. PH have not been tested cause the meter I have is not working.

Hi Betty,
I intend to keep a maximum of 9 goldies in the tank for the time being cause they are still not as big. As they grow bigger, I will remove a few to make space for them.

The filtration unit I am using is a 3 stage mechanical/trickle combination in 2 chambers and with the last for activated carbon. The filter capacity is 70 litres. How can I post the picture of the filter? Never done this before. I will also send a picture of my tank as the filtration design is different from the norm.

As for temp., our ambient is mostly 32-35C througout the year (summer all year) thus not able to lower the tank temp unless we use a chiller. Most of the marine aquarist uses a chiller to maintain the water to 25C. At this temp., the goldies seems to be OK as they are adapted to it since they are young. I do use an airpump to areate the tank.

Thanks...........

Hi Ranchu_man,

If you email your pics to me at kokos@edutain.com.au, I'll posts it here for you.

Thanks Captk. I will send it to you latest Tuesday.

There is a problem, ranchu man, I'm going on vacation this Monday morning and wouldn't be back until the 21st of this month. Can you wait that long?

No problem Captk. I can wait. Enjoy your holidays Thanks for your help.

Check out photobucket. I think it's free and you can host your pics there. Just use the reply button and you'll see a button that will let you link to the images.

Hi Betty, I have just registered to Photobucket. Thanks for the information I will post the picture tonight and I hope I know how to link the URL on the post. I will aks if I have problems.

Betty, I have included my tank pictures plus the trickle filter. Do you think the filter can take the bioload of the tank? The pump is a power head with 1800litres flow rate per hour. The filter size is 12" W X 18" D X 24" L.

The 1st stage is a mechanical/bio filter where the poops are collected on the media. This layer is thrown away every week and replaced with a fresh sheet. The rest of the layers are not clean most of the time. The ammonia level starts to raise when these layers are cleaned with tap water.

The 2nd stage is a trickle filter where water from the 1st stage is dripped down through the bio balls. There is also 2 packs of ceramic bio rings to help bacteria growth. This stage has not been cleaned since I run the tank 3 months back.

The suction system is not conventional but running on bottom suction and top overflow. Filtered water is pumped back into the tank via a tube which create currents at the bottom of the tank. The tank is bare bottom and easy to clean. The under current helps to push the fish poops to the suction end and the tank remains very clean most of the time unless the poops floats to the surface.

Tank capacity is 270litres (about 70gal) abd the water exchange through the filter system is about 7 times per hour. Water is crispy clear most of the time and little maintenance is needed. Noise level is also very low due to the filter system is housed inside the cabinet.

Wow! That's a nice sump set up!

I can't believe that the bioballs/rings aren't able to handle the load. That's a lot of biomedia. Given it happens after you rinse the filter pads in tap water and that kills quite a few biobugs in the filter pads... perhaps the extra biobugs in the 1st stage are sucking up the ammonia/nitrIte before it gets to the 2nd stage--no food for the biobugs to grow there. Makes me wonder if you need to lose some of the mechanical filter pads in stage 1 to get stage 2 colonized well.

Can't tell from the pic... what's the water level in stage 2?
From what I've read, the most efficient biofilters are not submerged cuz the biobugs have access to O2 from the air.

The water level in the 2nd stage is just above the bio rings about 4". All the bio balls in the 2nd stage are trickled to areate the water before pumping back into the tank. You are right that the bio balls are not much of use if they are immersed in water. I intend to change the filter media to those used in koi ponds to cultivate the bacteria but need to let the tank stabilized first before changing.

I have added a small piece of filter media from my fry tank last night which is fully cycled and hope it can help increase the bacteria in the first stage.

Consider putting it on top of the bioballs. that could perhaps help them get colonized. you could rinse your filer pads in discarded tank water instead of tap water.

Thanks Betty,
I will place another piece of media in the 2nd stage filter. I think the tank is settling down as I hae tested the ammonia level last night and it seems to be dropping below 0.5ppm. Probably the filter media from my fry tank did help to speed up the bacteria colonization. Will keep you updated.

Cool. I'm envious of that set up. it's sweeeet!

I have just added 3 layers of thick Japanese fiber media (mainly used for Koi ponds) for bio bug cultivation. The ammonia level shot up again this morning. The old media was not wash and I removed it very carefully soaking it in tank water before placing them back into the filter. Is the bio bugs so sensitive that moving it will cause some to die? Is there any other better way to prevent the cycle to crash?

Before adding the new media, the ammonia level was going down to almost zero. I will monitor for a few days to see whether the bio bug can regenerate back to the required level.

From what I've read, newly established biofilms are touchier than are well established biofilms. Since you washed them in tap water here while back, they're having to get established again. The biobugs are pretty slow growing as far as bacteria go. Here's a summary of info from Dr Tim's library. He did his dissertation on the biobugs. basically they like lots of airation, higher temps, and pH around 7.8.

What's your pH and water temp?
You can use this page to figure out how much ammonia is the toxic version based on your pH and water temp.

Thanks for the very useful link. Lots of information on water quality. My tank PH level is not tested and the temp is about 29C throughout the day. I will get a PH kit soon as the electronic unit I have is not working, problem with the Redox probe.

If you have noticed, my filter in kept in total darkness inside the cabinet. Will this inhibit the growth of the nitrifiying bacteria?

I don't recall having read anything about the biofilter bugs needing light.

Dataguru, your chart is absolutely fascinating. I have had as high of a reading as 2ppm of ammonia. According to the chart, at 68 deg. F & a pH of 7.0, that is a safe level of ammonia?

I wouldn't worry about it. That's only .008ppm of the toxic version (NH3). Is that freaky or what! LOL I'm still not used to not getting all excited about 2ppm ammonia. (I used to use 1ppm as the rule of thumb as to when to get concerned before I worked up those tables).

Do keep an eye on pH tho. Any idea the KH of your water?

pH seems to sway between 6.8-7.2. My tap is 7.0. I have to go buy a test kit for GH & KH. As a matter of fact, tomorrow!
I can't seem to get the ammonia below 1.0. It seems to stay at 1.5ppm. But acording to your chart, it is a safe level. I recall seeing in another thread that somebody was going crazy over a 0.5ppm reading.
When I get the ammonia under control, should I slowly try to raise the pH to 7.5? I have an Oranda & a Ryukin.

If their pH was up around 8, that's enough to worry about, cuz more ammonia is in the toxic form.

I'd get some crushed coral or crushed limestone or crushed oyster shell. Those dissolve when pH drops below 7.5 and release carbonates which keep pH from falling. They will also increase GH too.

Check out the links here: http://dataguru.org/misc/aquarium/FishInfo.html#WaterQuality

How long's your tank been set up?
What kind of filtration?
how many goldies? how big are they?
How big's the tank?
How do you maintain it?
Any ammonia in your tap water?

Thank you so much Dataguru!

1. About a month.
2. Whisper 20.
3. 2 Goldfishes. Oranda(2in. body + 2in. tail) & a Ryukin(2.5in. body + 1in. tail).
4. 20 gallon rectangular.
5. I do a 15% water change every few days. I vacuum the gravel with a suction device.
6. None.

I checked today and pH is 7.0, Ammonia 2.0 , Nitrite 0.125, Nitrate 2.5. The temp is 68 deg. F. I have one airstone. The two goldies look very happy and healthy, eat & poop well.
Also, I am supposed to replace the original filter now. Does the majority of the good bacteria live in the filter? Will the ammonia go up even more?
Lately, I've been doing a 15% change every other day to try to control the ammonia. Is this a good idea?

I'm glad to her they're doing well.
Sounds like you're doing a good jjob to making sure their water doesn't get toxic till the biofilter bacteria get up to speed.

15% every other day won't hurt. I'd be more worried about making sure nitrIte stays down.

NO don't change your filter media. just rinse it gently in discarded tank water. I wouldn't vacuum the gravel deeply either for now. just over the surface to remove the poop, etc. New biofilms are touchy so it's good to be very nice to them till they get more established.

how many filter pads does it have? How may gallons per hour does it move? is there any room inside for something like bioballs or ceramic rings?

Dr Tim has some of the best articles I've seen on biofiltration. Have you checked those out (from the link above)? Might speed things up a little if you raised the water temp.

Since you're seeing nitrIte, it would be good at add 1 level teaspoon of salt per gallon (that's a .1% concentration). be sure to predissolve and use salt with no additives. NitrIte enters thru the gills and binds up red blood cells, keeping them from being able to carry oxygen. Salt helps protect against nitrite poisoning by competing with nitrIte for uptake via the gills. I'd maintain that .1% salt concentration till nitrIte is 0ppm.

It's good that you're seeing nitrIte. you're getting there!

Great idea regarding rinsing the filter with the discarded water. Also skimming the gravel surface until the bacteria colony is established makes a lot of sense too. Once the tank is cycled, should I replace the filter then?
I'm not sure about the gph. I believe it is around 110 or so. There is only one filter pad in there. There is some room in there for something small. What is a ceramic ring & bioball? Is that like a biowheel?
Isn't raising the temp. a double edged sword? It would make the ammonia more dangerous? I will read your link. Thanks again!

Try this link. There is a filter picture containing bio balls and ceramic rings.
Cheers........
Filter picture

With only 1 filter pad you really don't want to change it till you absolutely have to.

It would be good to add another filter. maybe a larger one with separate areas for mechanical and biological filtration that pushes around 200 gallons per hour. or perhaps a smaller one, so you have 2 filter pads and 200 gallons per hour. that way you can change out one at a time and don't have to recycle the tank when you change the filter pad.

How's it going?

Thank you DataGuru & ranchu_man.
The ammonia shot up to about 4. It is currently:

pH=7.1, Ammonia=2.0, Nitrite=0.5, Nitrate=5.0, KH=90, GH=107

I guess the tank is starting to cycle albeit very slowly. <_<

Should I get a small bio balls or ceramic rings to stuff in the filter compartment?

Either should work. the bioballs may have more surface area tho.
How goes it?

Hi DataGuru! It seems like a long time since I last "talked" to you. I am so glad Kokos is back up!
It is definately starting to cycle. It has been a slow process.
It is now: pH=7.1, Ammonia=1.0, Nitrite=2.0, Nitrate=20, KH=125, GH=161. The pH seems to go down on its own gradually. It went down to 6.6, so I slowly added a little bit of the baking soda solution and it went back up to 7.1.
I am afraid to touch the filter until the tank cycles completely.

No, nitrosomnas is an autotrophic bacteria and doesn't need any light to function. My guess is that your bioload somewhat exceeded the capacity of your nitrifiers after you disturbed the filter media. This was compounded by the fact that your tank was newly cycled and the population of nitrifiers hadn't yet reached equilibrium. Everytime you tinker with the filter, the same thing will happen until it gets better established. You really should do a water change to knock down the nitrate level, though. If you had somewhat fewer fish during this process, the spikes should have been much lower. It sounds like you are going in the right direction, though. Good luck!

Dennis
Long Valley, New Jersey

It *has* been a while. Glad you're keeping an eye on pH and tweaking it gently. So did you salt to .1%? How's everyone doing?

Thanks. They are doing very well. I have not tried the salt yet. I will keep an eye on the Nitrite now and will use it if it doesn't start to go down.

Hi Betty,
Nice to be back....I missed the forum very much as the temporary site was difficult to access. Glad to be around you all again.
Remember I had ammonia problem for weeks and I could get it down? I think I found the source of the problem and it was caused low KH. I guess the nitrifying bacteria stops working at low KH. The ammonia starts to fall after I added 2 teaspoon of Sodium Bicarbonate in the tank and the level drops to zero in 2 days. THe tank is stabilized for now and I continue to add Sodium bicarb every water change.

The PH however is still low at 6.6 measured today. Tap water is about 7.0. I tried to get some crushed oyster shell but not available. They have big pack of crushed corals in a bag of 10kgs. Can I use this stuff to bring up the PH? Is there any other material that can be used? I read somewhere that limestone can be used. We have lots of limestone hills in our area.

What is the cause of the PH to drop since I change the water every week. Could it be the filter system I used where there is too much nitrifying bacteria in the system?

Forgotten to mention the GH is 50ppm tested with hardness reagent test strips. I have got a pack of ceramic balls which is white in color small pebbles like and it claims to stabilize PH and help bacteria growth. This product came from Taiwan and I do not know how well it will work. I understand adding oyster shell can increase the GH as well as KH and what other materials can help to increase the GH level? What is the recommeded GH level for goldfish?

Acids are produced when ammonia is converted to nitrAte. If your source water isn't well buffered, pH will get more acidic over time. Check the KH in your source water. It's probably low. Glad to see you have a pH test. Yea... low pH can inhibit the biobugs and I think you're right that they use carbonate (I'd hafta go look it up to be sure). Thankfully lower pH also make ammonia less toxic.

The crushed coral should work fine. just be sure to rinse it VERY well. It needs to go in a high flow area of the tank. In the sump should be fine. Limestone will work too. but I think per a chemist on Koivet, minerals that contain magnesium work better than calcium carbonate alone, cuz magnesium dissolves better. Check the links here for a good thread on buffering in the pH, KH, GH and biofiltration section.
http://dataguru.org/misc/aquarium/FishInfo.html#WaterQuality
There's also a calculator you can use to figure out how much baking soda to use to raise Kh and pH by a certain amount. Try not to raise pH by more than .4 per day.

Betty, thanks for your help. Will update you on the outcome after adding crushed corals. I will add more sodium bicarb tomorrow to increase the PH level slowly.

Yea.. KH of 50ppm is low. Back when I was buffering with baking soda, I would generally take mine up to about 120ppm to allow leeway for a 40 ppm drop during the week. The oyster shells appear to be keeping pH in the low 7s. The minerals don't dissolve unless pH falls below 7.5, so more is better since there's more to dissolve when it's needed.

I dunno how much the minerals will end up raising GH. Could probably figure it out cuz it would be a function of how much dissolves in response to KH being used up buffering acids. From what I've read, goldies like fairly hard water cuz it makes maintaining osmotic pressure easier. I've looked that up before, so I'll find it this evening and post. There's another thread where someone is experimenting with a plaster of paris "pill" that's supposedly supposed to help with pH. It actually raised GH a lot and KH only a little.