Hi, I have 20 litre tank with 3 fish. I know it's overstocked. I'm buying a bigger one.
I recently finished cycling this tank and params are nitrates 12.5( been same about 10 days now) Nitrites zero, ammonia zero, Kh3 , Gh >10 and Ph between 6.8-7.2. The tap water params are also the same except nitrates here are zero.
I had been seeing one of my fish gasping at the surface literally trying to jump out of the tank. It raised itself out of the water till its eyes were out of water and I saw the other fish occasionally going to the surface as well. I saw that fish showing stress signs of fins changing color during the day turning from semi transparent to transparent to sometimes dangerously thin. So I increased surface agitation and let the outlet break the surface. It gave no results.
So I went and bought plenty of plants and added to my tank. Now I dont see any gasping but the fins are frayed. Sher khan( He's the fighter and made it thru disasters) has the tip of his dorsal fin dislodged from the body and Duchess(my comet) has her tail frayed too.
I think low buffering and nitrification is leading to high Ph fluctuations.I thought of using baking soda to raise my KH but dont know how to go about it.
Plus Im not too sure Im right either! All help will be appreciated.
Incidentally my tank is short of space since I have dunked my new eheim filter sponge to seed it and also ceramic rings for the new tank. Could that also be a reason?

Sounds like you're on the right track.

Your biofilter produces acids when it turns ammonia into nitrAte which gradually uses up your bicarbonates and causes the pH to get more acidic. If your tap water has enough KH, partial water changes should keep KH up. Mine's not.

Plants will cause daily pH swings. They consume CO2 (which is acidic) during the day and raise pH. pH will be highest right before the lights are turned off. at nite they release CO2 which decreases pH. pH will be lowest in the morning right before the lights come on.

No, I don't think adding the new media to start getting seeded is messing with anything.

20 liters is about 5.28 US gallons.
Using: http://dataguru.org/misc/aquarium/calKH.asp

You put in how many gallons. I'm using 5 gallons since you have other stuff in the tank that's taking up room. and I'm going to put in that you want to raise KH by 1dh. It tells me that you'd need 1/10th of a teaspoon of baking soda to raise KH by 1dh. You may not see an actual increase in KH till you add more baking soda tho, cuz it'll probably get used up buffering acids in the tank. Dunno how you're going to measure than so maybe a small pinch.

We can estimate how much that'll change pH by entering the starting and ending KH levels. I'm using 3dh and 4dh. That should raise pH by about 0.29.

You don't want to raise pH by more than .4 per day.

Also, since ammonia is more toxic at higher pH, it's good to test for ammonia prior to increasing pH. If you are seeing ammonia, you can figure out how much of the toxic form of ammonia is present from your total ammonia readings, pH and water temp and see how high you can take pH without making the ammonia as toxic. Ammonia binders can also be used, but I'd stay away from ammolock cuz it messes up your ammonia test readings. Amquel is good, but it eats KH for lunch! so you'll have to buffer more if you use it.

If you're not seeing any ammonia in the tank, I'd keep adding the baking soda each day till you get KH up to 7dh and pH up in the high 7s. I used to routinely buffer my tanks with each weekly partial water change to bring KH up to 7dh. That gives me enough buffering that KH stays about 4 by the next partial water change.

Now I'm using crushed oyster shell. It dissolves when pH gets below 7.5 and does the buffering for me. Crused oyster shell will also increase GH.

Whew! That was loadza info.

What i forgot to tell you last time was that when cycling the tank I had asked the guy for an Amquel equal and he gave me a SERA Toxivec. The instructions were in german but he said that this is what i was looking for. It REMOVED ammonia and nitrite instead of binding it!!! Internet enlightened me. So my tank has been registering zero ammonia. I put it in last Friday. I use the salicyclate based test. Also i feared a nitrite spike when it wore off. ( 1 more reason 4 daily tests). Shld I fear repercussions?

As I understand if i raise my KH by daily additions and bring it to 7 by 4th day, it will fall back to 4 at the end of the week when it is time for the weekly water change. This will result in a daily ph alteration also, although small. But wouldnt I then be in constant adjustment and optimisation battle? Also wont there be a ph swing? Catch 22? My tap KH is 3dh. But I will check again tomorrow. Just to be sure it isnt zero. It was pretty close.6

I earlier used PH stabiliser but it ate up nitrates and phosphates too. So I junked it. I need the little nitrates i have.

I bought a heating rod 4 the new tank. do u suggest i install it immediately in the present one? it will only take more room even if it be a rod. it will be min. 3 weeks before the new tank will be ready for fish.

My GH is between 10-16 . 2 pink and 1 semi pink square. almost the highest end. so do u think oyster shell will be a good idea for me?

Vandana

The .6 in the tap water Kh is typo! What i meant was it was close to being zero.

I also have tropical plant in there. Can it harm?

The plant should be fine.

It's up to you on the heater. What's your current water temperature?
I think I'd put it on the new tank and bring that one up to 80F/27C. Might help it cycle faster.

and I thought my tap water was low in KH!
When you do your partial water change, just use enough baking soda to bring the change water up to 7dh before you add it to the tank.

on the oyster shell, it depends. That's a pretty large range for your GH reading--between 10 and 16 dh. Is there a pet store around that could use a liquid test to get a more precise reading for GH?
Fishdoc UK says GH between 8 and 17 is good
http://www.fishdoc.co.uk/water/hardness.htm
this one says between 11 to 22 dh is good for goldies.
http://209.15.53.70/techsheet.asp?product_id=125
I'd bet you could use oystershell.

I did the test and my NH3 is zero and Nitrate is 30. KH is miserable 3 and GH worse...10. PH 7.2.

I need to do water change today. But mostly topping up since lots has evaporated. Shld i bring the dh to 7 in the fresh water today or would the change be too drastic? I change 3 litres. So how much do u reco? Also, I added that pinch of sodabicarb 2day to the tank.
Gravel was gunked up so cleaned fair bit. Filter is also dirty. Shld i just clean gently.

I have just strewn the ceramic rings on the gravel. Would a perlon bag be better? My filter cant house them.

Out of curiosity, i match temp by getting 3litrs into a pan on the gas for abot 10 seconds. How do I match temp when i change 20 litres for my new tank?

So the baking soda has raised pH a little but not KH. That's ok, cuz it's buffering acids in the tank rather than staying as bicarbonate. Adding a another pinch in your 3 liters of change water should be fine. Keep up the daily pinches. and don't worry. your pH isn't bad and it's better to change pH slowly.

I don't think your GH is bad. I think it's fine.

The rings should be fine on the gravel. The biofilter bacteria would probably grow faster if you hung the rings in a mesh bad under the outflow from your filter. More oxygen there.

I usually mix hot and cold tap water to get my change water to the right temperature. You could heat some in a pan and add it to the cold water to get it to the right temp.

The Kh is today higher than 3 but much less than 6. PH is 7.2. Today I notciced one more fish with broken tail and sher khan has a snip in his tail too. I did a water change and added the bicarb. Checked its Kh. Was about 6.
What do u reco? These guys are fraying no end

Sher khan is the one with the dislodged dorsal fin.

I was just browsing some posts when I saw one in which u advised to predissolve the bicarb in tank water and very gradually add it tot he tank making sure it dispreses well. I guess I have been a jerk. I just took the pinch and held it in front of the filter outlet letting the current take it. Could that possible expalin the split fins. I ahve never had all my fish with split tails and dorsals

Sorry, I usually mention that. I assumed you'd pull up the calculator and would see it. Since you added it to a high flow area so it should be ok.

Shouldn't be your pH messing with the fins. 7.2 isn't that bad.
How was your pH after KH was up to 6dh?

So can you describe what the fins look like, especially near the areas you talked about that have issues?

Any idea when you'll be able to get a larger tank?

I did a ph kh check at 9.00 pm yesterday to check the oscillation. It was 7.0 kh 4. today morning at 10.00 ph was 6.8. KH 4. Iadded the bicarb dissloved and at 3.00 pm it was ph.7.6 and KH 6. from 6.8 last night at 9.00 pm to 7.6 today at 3.00 pm is the PH variation. What do u say? considering it is logarithmic.

I didnt see new ruptured fins. The dorsal fin of sher khan is detached from its its dody by 2mm at the end. Its tail has a cut. like a paper cut. 1mm.

duchess the one that had fin rot earlier has its pectoral fin frayed and its tail also has the same cut as of sher Khan. it is a snip. Berlios the male common has his tail cut. His tail has a small wedge missing. Its dorsal seems frayed slightly. All of them have their scales looking very dry. The ony thing is that I see them go totaly still after it gets dark at about 5.00 pm and then they remain so for the rest of the night.

Their appetite is good, are active and have their dorsals up. i have seen when duchess got fin rot. She showed diesase sysmtoms with flat dorsal, tail droopy and injured dented scales. Now I can see no such signs except dry bodies. The gravel gets very dirty very soon. Big bits of black poo. I cleaned today again. I dont have much gravel. half inch at best. so cleaning is also not easy. I use the vacuum and shake the gravel to release poo.

I want to get the new tank by this weekend. Just that I need to get my stand ready before that. Waxed and all. Plus my 2 yr old is running fever. So thats pulling me back a little. After that 3 days with potashium permanganate and then rinse and then up . So we are seeing anything upto 3-4 weeks before the new tank is cycled and ready for use. <_<

I'm asking this at risk of sounding an absolute bimbette, but what is a feed store where I can get oyster shells. they feed it to chickens. I'm asking this to try and figure a possible dutch transaltion and explain it to my LFS. She can help me out.
Each time I browse this site, I wish I could mail order from US. But not a single site does. They go only as far as Peurto Rico. Accesiblity in US compared to what I have in Holland is like comparing everest to the local hill top!

KH is up to 6 with pH up at 7.6. That's good.
They also sound like they're feeling good with no bacterial issues. Keeping the pH up should help them heal.

After I brought my KH up to 7dh, I checked KH right before the next partial water change to see how much was getting used up between water changes. In my tanks about 2dh get used up in a week. So at partial water change time, I'd add enough baking soda to raise KH back up to 7dh in the tank. I chose 7dh to be sure KH wouldn't drop below 4dh by the next water change.

It's a place where you buy feed for farm animals (cows, horses, pigs, chickens, dogs, etc). You can also look for crushed limestone (at landscaping stores), dolomite, or crushed coral.

You speak english a LOT better than I can speak Dutch!

thnx.

In case i get crushed coral. How do i use it? Put it in the tank while the KH is still up at 7.0. or at the time of water change?

I get oyster shell mixed with other things. Not advisable.

It needs to go in a high water flow area. Either in your filter or a mesh bag. I think it has too sharp of edges to just put it in the tank. You can put it in the tank anytime. It won't dissolve unless the pH drops below 7.5. Given your tap water is so low in KH, we'll have to see how it does with partial water changes. I've seen it work pretty fast, so it may be able to keep KH up without baking soda. Probably depends to some degree on how much water you change out.

I just checked. i dont get crushed coral alone either. So i guess I am stuck to baking soda for good. Now if I suddenly raise my Kh from 4 to 7 at the time of water change wont my ph also shoot?

Use the baking soda calculator to estimate how much that should change pH.
http://dataguru.org/misc/aquarium/calKH.asp

Increasing KH from 4dh to 7dh should increase pH by 0.56. That's a more than I like to raise pH in a 24 hour period.

Taking it from 4dh to 6dh should increase ph by about .4

It'll be easier when you get the larger tank cycled, because you can measure rather than having to add pinches.

They sell a substrate sand for marine tanks that might help. It's called aragonite. It's calcium carbonate.

thnx. i will check that and come back as to how to about it in case i get it.

Hi Dataguru,

Sorry for the long silence. I was busy logging my fish book each day to see the pattern. I'm back now.

I did a water change yesterday and found my Kh had dipped 2 deg. over that time. PH was 7.2. When I added water I got that to 6 dh. I checked Kh and Ph today. It's 6 and 7.2 resp. I will check again day after tomorrow and see how it goes. Your calculator is great.

AND I HAVE MY NEW TANK.

And yes, the fins have all healed up except sher khan's dorsal is still dislodged. But I'm sure he will get ok too!

Thanx again for all the help. Kudos to the people who help and kudos to this site that never lets anyone down.

Awsome!! Sounds like everything is going well.

Hi,
I kept trying different places if I could get Oyster shell or cruished coral. There is this one place that sells me coral. he says it is coral and people use it for decoration. Not crushed but the usual ones. is it the same as crushed coral? Do i need to pound it and it will do the job for me or is this coral different from what u r talking about?

Sorry, i forgot to add that this guy says I can use Kh plus which is carbonate salt. Would u advise that or that it is the same as baking soda?

I'd bet the KH plus would be the same as baking soda. Does it say what's in it?

Yea, assuming it's real coral. I'd put it in a sock or something and beat it into small pieces and then rinse it well and put it in a mesh bag or in a filter basket where water would be constantly flowing over it.

I went and bought the coral. Loads of it. it is the real coral. Can u plz tell me how to use it?
1. Shall I put them in straight away after cleaning. My KH today was 6.5, Ph 8. Will it rock my KH/PH?
2. How much shld I add?
3. How long does it do the job?
4. How do i know it is spent or is continous water testing the only way?
Sorry for bombarding with questions!

The KH plus is baking soda alright!!!

One more thing, when I used test strip it showed me Ph of tops 7.6. It shows 7.2 steady after the baking soda. but the drops showed me 8 and I freaked! Is Ph 8 good?

8's ok... a little high but nothing to worry about if you're not seeing ammonia.

I wouldn't put it where the goldies could get to it. It has fairly sharp edges doesn't it?

If you have media baskets in your filter that would be a good place for some coral. a mesh bag under the outflow for the filter would be good. I stuck a couple of knee high hose filled with oyster shell in the back of another filter. Anywhere you have that's a high water flow area. I probably have 2 cups total in my 55 gallon goldie tank and KH has been at 6dh right before the last two partial water changes, so I'm sure that i've added enough. I figure as my oyster shell dissolves it'll get smaller. Should work the same for the coral.

Thnx dataguru. The coral is knife in coral's disguise! So I will crush it and put it without worrying about increasing my already high PH.

I read somewhere that while oyster dissolves coral is hard to tell when it gets spent. Which is why I asked. Boy, I wish I could lay my hands on Oyster shell. :angry:

I will try and do some homework with coral also.

One more thing. When I do my water change wont the pH change be too drastic? My tank PH is 7.8-8.0 and the tap PH is 7.0. So when I do a 50% water change wont it hit the goldies hard? Also the tank KH is 6.5 and the tap KH is 2.5.

You're right... given your tap water is so low in buffering capacity, it would be a good idea to bring pH up closer to the tank water. Raising KH up to around 6dh in your change water with baking soda before adding it to the tank should do the trick.

Hi Thnx Dataguru. Plz tell me if Im really bugging u off.
I put this coral in there. Had a really hard time breaking coral to half to 1 com pieces. Put it in the mesh bag. My filter outlet is cutting the surface. So I am unable to hang the mesh bag. I'd put it at the bottom but within minutes of putting it I saw 2 of my fish gasping. Some of the dust did float around. I freaked and pulled it out. Now they are again under my hawkeye vision but this stress is freaking me out. They do gasp off and on. What do u think happenned. Plus it is night and if anything goes wrong I will be asleep. Shld I try again tomorrow morning?
I washed the coral after breaking into pieces and topped off washing in dechlor water. I am at a loss

They are not twitching of but off and on yawning. I dont like using tools which are not virgin like a kitchen motor pecil (too many doubts leading to stomach churns) to crush the coral. I washed the motor pecil before use. The mesh bag was in the fish storage container. No soap reaches it by 10 feet barge pole. I dont know why they gasped and may be even twitched. To think I bought coral for 30 euros!!!!
can't I just take a small piece of coral, wash it, wrap in filter cotton, insert in the mesh bag and put in the tank?

I don't mind.

That's strange. Are they still doing it? How long's the tank been cycled?

For it to do any good at keeping KH up, there has to be enough of it to dissolve when the pH starts slipping down. Also it needs to be in an area where water will be flowing over it.

Guess what? The fish I said was going to surface and gasping? HE just lost a scale. I did another water change today. The ammonia and nitrites yesterday and today's testing showed zero. Nitrates are low at 15. Kh 6.6, Ph 8. NO3 maybe low becoz I recently cleaned my fliter. It's been cycled for a month now. Also this new aqua safe has some 'bioextract' which is making more bubbles. Also new water takes time to season. or s.... I dread to even type it!

Gosh! From frying pan into fire. This fish is the one surfacing every now and then regularly. Dives, picks gravel, then up again to gasp. Few seconds. Then back down. I dont see visble parasites. The others are not gasping. Though they dont see happiest either. Dorsals of all r up. eating ok. the poo of all 3 is black. Occasionally in the day poo of the gasping fish is thick but kinda pale green. maybe dry daphnias. Sometimes black zig zag. absorbing eggs?....

I am clueless. Why a scale loss? and gasping with water params ok? Shld I start a thred in the disease section.

DAtaguru, it seems u've become my fishdoc! LOL

Dataguruuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu, I'm seeing froth. Not all out bubbly but it's there all the same. Oh ###### ###### ######!!!!

I didnt do anything wrong. maybe the blessed coral from the darned crursed shop. It was inthere only a few seconds.

I added Sera toxivec. Now I'm going to add salt concentration. i hope not another nightmare. today morning water chnage was 90%. Can I add bacteria culture to my filter while it is still on.

Sounds like something's messing with his gills.

So is that fish flashing (rubbing against things)?

What kind of parasite medications can you get over there?

I'd be tempted to increase salt to .3% over 3 days. or perhaps do a .6% salt dip.

It wouldn't hurt to start a thread in the disease section.

How's the new tank coming along?

I am starting a thread in the disease section.

I believe 1 flat tsp to a gallon gives 0.1%. So does .3% mean 3 tsp to gallon? Or raise it by .1% each day.? I dont know how to salt dip? besides I think i cant handle it. Can a salt dip harm if the fish is healthy?

Can I add the bacterial culture.? My cycle must have crashed.

I have myxazin. Protozin and Octazin here. (mail ordered from UK), Melafix, Acriflavine. malachite Green , Formalin. I hate flukes. I hope he doesnt have that. I stored some pp from a friend. I posted some medicines on the Toothless thread. maybe that can give u an insight on what's available. I dont know what u suspect. I wouldnt know its effectiveness since I dont know which compound treats what effectively. U can be the best judge there. I have listed the compositions also.

The fish is not flashing or rubbing. No twitching. The others are also not flashing or yawning or twitching. It was only surfacing. After seeing the bubbles, I changed water again. PH,KH, temp matched with dechlor. This time I went whole hog. Almost 95% water change. The fish are now very quiet. Swimming once in a way. More like resting. Picking plants and gravel once in a while. the sick fish isnt surfacing so much either. Venturing out in the open then going again under the plants. The bubbles are there. But only what i think comes with really fresh water. My new tank is running. But ammonia spikes on. I think it will be risky. I have a 5 gallon rubbermaid tub, ready with temp matched dechlor water ready just for emergency. I dont see them behaving too odd. But I will need to wait till tomorrow before coming to any conclusion.

So do u suggest i go ahead with the salt additon anyways?

I am now going to the disease section. Hoping to c u there.

Let's see what Paul has to say.

How are your water and goldies doing after the big water change?

Yes, .1% is 1 level teaspoon per gallon. Doc Johnson recommends increasing the salt concentration to .3% over 3 days by increasing it my .1% per day. The reason I was thinking about the .6% salt dip is that may knock down some parasites. My moor tolerated a 30 minute dip in .6% salt solution. He didn't like it, but he tolerated it ok.