Since i have never had to cure ich before, i have no point of reference. Last Sunday i started to treat my Skubunkin for ich. She was covered in white spots, salt like. Now its been 5 days and she still has some ich but less i think. She still is keeping her dorsal fin clamped but although she spends time on the bottom she does spend time swimming. Can it take this long to cure. I am using King British White Spot cure (UK brand i think)..

Hi Declan,

Ich has a complex life cycle. The white spots are cyst which is part of their life cycle and in fact is protecting them against the med. When the time is right, the cyst drops off and release the free swimming tomites. It is the tomite stage that you are targeting with the meds.

What is the temp of your tank? In warmer water, the life cycle is 2-5 days. If it is really cold, it can be weeks! So you have to wait until all the cyst dropped off and then let the cycle complete. If you don't see any more white spots for some time then you can be sure that you have hit them on their collective head. BTW, it doesn't mean that you have rid yourself of ich forever but the infectation is under control.

I looked but I can't find the ingredients of the King British White Spot Cure No.5. What is in it?!

The standard treatment is Malachite Green and/or salt.

OBTW!!! Light deactivates Malachite Green so please turn off all aquarium light and shield the tank from sunlight if that King British thing has MG in it. That maybe one of the reason why the treatment is not progressing as fast as it should.

My tank temp is 18 Celsius, i was thinking of increasing to 20 to help sweat it out, i will have to look into ingredients but no mention of blocking out light on the instructions..

Thank You
Should have looked, it contains Malachite Green, so lights off and in the day do i cover or close curtains.
i added salt when i set up the tank but no more since.

To Captk...You suggeted this below..
What I'm suggesting is not text book but if you are desperate, it is worth giving it a go.

Get the bigger tank. Clean, fill with dechlor water. Start filter going, start aeration (heater if needed). Wait a few hours for the tank temp to equalise with your other tank. Add fish into tank. At this stage, the tank water will be as perfect as you will ever get. It will go downhill from there.

Now add ammonia binder such as amquel or ammolock. Salt to 0.1% concentration (1tsp/gal). What you are doing is heading off the ammonia spike and nitrIte spike that is coming. Test your ammonia and nitrIte level at least daily. The ammonia will rise gradually. Add more ammonia binders every few days. Unless you use a right type of ammonia test kit, it will register a continual rise in ammonia. Don't panic, the binder will take care of the free ammonia. Be generous with the binders. It is near impossible to overdose on them and you want to be sure.

Once that part of the cycle is near completion, ammonia will fall and the nitrIte will raise sharply. Once again, the salt will protect the fish from nitrIte poisoning and they will ride it out. No need to add any more binders once ammonia start to fall.

You will then be hit with a surge in nitrAte. Do several partial water changes over a few days to try to keep that down to 20ppm. 40ppm is okay for a few days if the peak is really high. By then you should have zero ammonia and near zero nitrIte.

Like I said, it is not text book but it gives you a useable tank within a few hours and the fish won't suffer through the cycling as much.

In another thread..with Daisy having ich, should i water change more to keep ammonia/nitrite down or use binders..Its just i am cycling to your specifications.so would like advice..aswell as fighting ich..so tense time

Hi Declan,

Yes, please close the curtains during the day. The less light the better. BTW, here is some info on MG+F. http://www.fishdoc.co.uk/treatments/malachite.htm

Yes, 18*C is a little on the low side. You would want the fish's own immune system to help you as well. However, the temp issue is tricky. At 26*C, the life cycle is very short so potentially, the duration of treatment is shorter as well. BUT if the treatment is ineffective, the population of ich can explode and overwhelm the fish instead! So I think a softly-softly approach is better. Rising it to 20*C is a good start. If you see positive reaction to the treatment then go up to 22*C. That should be a good mid point.

Now, with the cycling. Normally I would say do partial water changes and keep up the binders. The issue here is the dilution of the meds. Will you be able to main the dosage fairly accurately? I.e. if you change 20% water, can you add back in exactly 20% meds? If you are not confident then I would go heavy on the ammonia binders and tough it out over the treatment period and then do several partial water changes to take the edge off the ammonia/nitrIte after the treatment is over. Are you in the nitrIte phase yet? Don't forget the salt if you are in the nitrIte phase. Very important to protect them against nitrIte poisoning.

How does that sound to you?

Another problem, i have found out why her dorsal fin is down, its started to rot, which is a symptom of white spot, severe symptom at that but i need any advice i can. I have turned off all lights and cloaked the tank, i am trying to keep the temp at 20 c at the moment but heater is new and trying to figure it out. Tomorrow is the next time i can add meds, ammonia and nitrite are 0, so water is good. Any other suggestions, will the fins repair if i can get her through this..

I have left my heater going on min and the water temp is 22c, this is to high surely, but its the minimum temp for the heater setting, i have turned it off. I can't seem to figure the heater out, and playing around with it while Daisy is in is no good. Will this harm her, won't the water take time to return to 18c..than just dropping quickly.

Hi declan,

How is the ich looking? Has some dropped off?

Does the king british thingy has formalin in it? If it has then it will help the finrot as well. Not necessary the best thing for it but it will help to dampen it down until the ich treatment is over. I know it is tempting to hit all the problems at the same time but mixing meds willy-nilly is problematic.

I would also suggest to raise the salt concentration to 0.3%. Does it gradually overtime. 0.1% every 12hrs.

With the heater, it really depends on whether you are seeing improvements. If you see some cyst dropped off and no more appears then raising the temp to 22*C will help the treatment progress. I think overall, a higher temp than 18*C is a good idea.

The water temp won't drop quickly, it will gradually drop back to ambient temp.

Yes, fins and tail will heal nicely and quickly if not too much damage is done.
hmmm, I might actually suggest you add more meds now (instead of tomorrow) because the last dose might have been rendered ineffective already. Just my thought.

Just as an aside:

Remember to up your aeration in your tank if you have the temps up.

Hope your fish is doing better!!

Jenn

Well, small update, she's OK at the moment, not at the state Annie and Clarabel reached but could go either way.
A Question, what temperature water to goldfish like. (21/2c was the start point of my heater)?
The active ingredients are, Malachite Green, Acriflavine and Quinine Sulphate.
Another Question, Is it just sunlight and aquarium light that deactivate malachite green or all light?

Yes i noticed that she started gulping, and it was to late to up aeration, so i turned the heater off. Every wheres shut.

Hi Declan,

I thought you have adequate aeration. Thanks Jenn for the reminder.
Please increase aeration.

Anyway, GF can tolerate 0*C-30*C (that is why they are called cold water fish ) but the ideal temp for an aquarium with GF is actually between 21*-24*C. So it is fine to have the tank at 22*C. The most important thing is stability. Yo-yoing or sudden rise or drop in temp and pH are the primary cause of a lot of fish problems.

Normal light will deactivate MG so keep it to a minimum. I don't mean that you have to operate in pitch darkness, just not direct light. Close the curtains, turn off light hood, that sort of thing.

Hello again, first thank you for taking your time to reply.
First i have put meds in, 36hrs since last med instead of 48hrs.
Hud light is off, and tank is covered, as light would flood the room in the morning.
As for aeration, the filter/pump should be enough, as they all came together with heater, however, she seemed to visit the surface more, but she always did to a degree, looking for food.
I plan on switching the heater on again, to approx 21/2c but will get more aeration just to be safe. It is slowly cooling now, heater has been off for several hours and it still at 21c. So it will drop slowly and probably will not turn on for a few days..
Thanks Again

Quick question Captk.
Its still taking its time but this is only the second treatment with lights out. I tested ammonia and it registered .5mg/l, stupid me did this after adding med, so i added amquel+ to counteract the ammonia, or should i have done a water change.
She is still hanging on, even though i got a new airline to add some air to my existing pump, so the tanks full of bubbles and she keeps trying to eat them.
Please let me know if i have done right with amquel+ or should i do a water change, was gonna do a 10% in the morning..

0.5 ammonia is manageable. No need to worry. A splash of amquel will take care of that. Has the number of white spots decreased? Temp is around 22*C now?

Has the number of white spots decreased, slightly.
Is the water 22c, yes, with more aeration, i added some airline to my existing setup, it now creates a tank of small bubbles, all popping on the surface.
Her rear fin, and pectoral are fine, the rest are shredded.
She spends time, on the service on back left of tank.
I do fear for her, she spends alot of energy trying to stay there.

Best you can ease off on the aeration. If the meds has formalin in it then you definitely need more aeration but it doesn't so you should be fine. If the poor fish is being sweep around by the air bubbles, it is not a good idea too. Maybe you can create a shelter for her in her fav corner as well.

I don't think theirs a great current, just lots of bubbles, the tank is pretty empty apart from the gravel. I honestly keep expecting to find her floating barely alive like Annie or Clarabel each morning i go down. You know the other day i had my eye on a new fish but if she doesn't pull through i may call it quits, i seem to do everything text book but end up killing my fish. It just is very hard, its not as if Annie or Clarabel had a real quality of life and thats my fault.

Declan, listen to me. You are trying too hard. We all try too hard when we start a hobby. The cut in the wood has to be just right, the shade of paint must be spot on. No, no. That is not the point. The point is to learn, to enjoy and to grow with it. You sucess as a fish keeper is not measured by how many fish you killed or breed.

I once killed a tankful of the most beautiful pearscales. They were all tiny when we started and they were the size of large eggs when they died. It was heart breaking but I moved on. It was my mistake (new house, fresh paint, tank relocation don't mix). I learnt from it and I moved it. Now I breed cichlids now. I still loss the odd fish but it is not the end of the world. For every fish I lost, I see 20 new frys that are growing strong.

Please, never say you failed. It is not a given just because you followed the text book. One fish guru once said to me. There is no one true path and it is very true. If it works for you, it is your way.

Take a deep breath. Learn from this. The fight is not over yet, not by a country mile. Regardless, next time you start. Start with the knowledge you have gain and have faith in yourself. That is the most important thing!

I probably will continue, since i am hooked. My problem is i love my pets dearly, and although to most people its laughable, i get upset and it pains me. I fell in love with a large lionhead, and have my heart set on him, (lol, i already have a name, so it chooses the sex, i'll learn to sex them one day soon).
Its just at the moment i feel like i am watching Daisy die, i don't feel a very confident fish keeper at the moment, hence my doubts...

I understand, declan. It is hard to watch a pet die. Confidence will only come in time. Some people have more luck when they start and then they might hit a bump somewhere along the way and realised that it wasn't as easily as they think. At least you have no illusion of that!

The important thing is not to give up. Review what went wrong. Have a more realised outlook. Not casual but relaxed. It is not a military operation. Good water is most important, clean tank is not. Algae and a bit of crud on the bottom never killed a fish. Over servicing of a tank can.

BTW, have you test your source water? I read on another thread that someone has 2ppm of ammonia straight out of their tap!

You bought Daisy recently, didn't you? She probably picked up the ich at the pet store. It happens all the time. It's not your fault.

Have faith in yourself. It is alright to have doubt but it is more important to overcome the doubt because Daisy needs you.

With hindsight, i look back and believe the white spot started with Annie. I am gonna turn the light on tonight to see if she has any remaining. She still has clamped fins, though i believe they are shredded. She now shows different behavior than before, before she sat on the bottom now she hovers at the top, just below the surface, head up at 65 degrees. Could this be swim bladder?? Poor thing, though she's still here..

Also a note to the above, she did spend some time gasping a while back or looking for food, either way she took a lot of air in at the surface though more aeration has been added incase. I have been reading reports of Amquel crashing ph levels, i thought mine were stable at 8 but i am having doubts now.

Hi declan,

I think we need to just focus on one thing at a time. There are a number of reasons why a fish might float to the surface. It might not be swim bladder. Could you check Daisy's gills for me. Just make sure that it is still meat red and not tattered. Is the ammonia under control now? What about the nitrIte?

Did you see more or less spots now? Are you planning on another round of ich treatment?

There has certainly been a lot of discussions about amquel and ammolock lately. I have used ammolock for years and didn't have any problems. Sure, it can give false readings but it does neutralise the ammonia and that is what it suppose to do but there seemed to be a ground swell against it so I just pull my head in and see how it develops. Let's just say that I would still use ammolock without hestiation if I suspect that my fish are in danger of ammonia poisoning.

Keep us posted!

Hello All, especially Captk
Considering drastic measures..putting Daisy in 5 gallon for a week or so, while i empty tank down..Something seems wrong, i was gonna, empty, and boil all, inc gravel and start again, new filters and all.
Am i doing the right thing or making a big mistake..

If i do the above should i use existing filters, just rinsing them, or will they be infected with ich, my plan was empty tank, boil - rinse gravel, and refil, effectivly a 100% water change and mega gravel clean i checked the water today with the lights on and it looks awful.

First of all let me make it clear that you have done a wonderful job and you are a fantastic fish keeper. It is not your fault that your fish got ich.

When you say you checked the water and it looks awful, do you mean daisy or the water itself?

This is most drastic indeed. I feel for you. I know how much it pains you. I'm not going to say that it is definitely the best thing to do but in view of your current situation, it may be the only way of give you the certainty and peace of mind.

I would suggest that you go bare bottom for now. No gravel at all. Much less work for you now and daisy doesn't need them. When you sort out the tank and the ich then you can think about either putting them back in or use river rocks.

You realise that you will have to cycle the tank again from scratch. To make absolutely sure that you start with a clean slate, you will need to clean the filter thoroughly, sterilize it, in fact.

Monitor the ammonia level. Keep it under 1ppm. Use amquel/prime if you don't trust ammolock when you need to. Use water changes to keep everything under control.

GOOD LUCK!!

An update....well a balls up really.
Daisy now sits in a large goldfish bowl, well my 5 gallon (3 gallons at the moment) with no filter or aeration, i hope she survives, tomorrow i will get a filter.
The 25 gallon WATER change was a disaster, i washed the gravel, put it back and refilled. Small bubbles appeared at the sides and since they didn't disappear, i am guessing some soap or something got onto the gravel while i rinsed it.
So i guess i will have to start a fresh again tomorrow..
I do have a few questions, sorry again.
I guess its easier to bin the gravel, but how do i sterilize the filter media and the tank??

Hi declan,

I think you might be better off using the bucket-to-bucket method to sustain Daisy for the time being. You can't really cycle both tanks with just one fish (unless you use the fishless method) and it will be worse for Daisy in the little tank.

With the bubbles on the side of the tank, that is probably just the dissolved gas from the town water coming out. It is okay. If you see foam on top of the tank then it may be soap.

The easiest way to sterlise the filter (and the tank for that matter) and the various bits and pieces is to use bleach. Just a cap ful in a bucket of water. Soak the bits for 10mins, stir to make sure that there are no air pockets in the parts. Rinse, rinse and rinse until you can't smell any bleach. Use dechlor water for the final couple of rinses.

<_< This is starting to feel like a online journal now rather than a forum...

Just a update. This morning Daisy looked at deaths door, so i put her back in 25 gallon tank, and crossed my figures..well i think she is happier, at least she moves around now, and eats, as opposed to floating and not eating..
I am unsure about the tank, i think i will go buy new filters, and gravel or similar.

I want a roman/greek theme, pillars and all, but might sit and design it, give daisy a week as is, then start a fresh..

Good luck, Daisy! You are a fighter.

Well, declan, if we were watching this on Discovery channel, it would be "a journal of discovery, a journey into the great unknown . . ."

Take it easy, my friend. It is not over until the fat lady sings. <cue canned Evil Laughter™>