Hi. I've been reading alot of the messages on this board yesterday and today and one thing that I'm curious about is what is so wrong about feeding goldfish goldfish flakes?? I've only had my fish a couple of weeks now after my 6 year old won one at church. It was just a little feeder fish (named Goldy) which sadly just died on Friday night (hours of sobbing by my daughter- I think giving small children animals that are prone to short lives is not such a good idea).

Anyways, we still have the friend we had purchased for her (Red Sally), and now we bought another new one yesterday (Spot). I've only been feeding them the flake food that came with the little tank we bought for her. It's Wardley Goldfish Premium Flakes. Why is this bad? If someone could explain this I'd be appreciative- thanks!

~Mochashello

Yea, that practice of giving goldies as prizes condemns most of them to death. It's a shame. People seem to have the idea that goldies are easy and that you can keep them in a 1 gallon bowl with no filtration which is totally bogus.

My goldies got really floaty poop when eating flakes.
Flakes caused my big moor to flip over.
My best guess on flakes is that they contain lots of grains which get turned into gas in the GI tract.
The flakes float to some degree, so people think eating from the surface causes fish to get too much air in their GI tract.
Some people also recommend pre-soaking pellets or flakes before feeding.

Personally, I think feeding flakes and pellets exclusively is a bad thing.
If you look at the ingredients you'll see fish or shrimp meal and grains/soy and added vitamins. feeding that all the time would be like you or I eating fish sandwiches all the time. meat and starch. not healthy and not even close to a natural diet.

I feed my goldies shrimp or krill and veggies (peas, green beans, lima beans, zucchini, etc) defrosted and torn into bite sized pieces, along with home made gel food. Feed em kiwi from time ot time for the vitamin C content.

If your biofilter bugs aren't up to speed yet, go light on feeding for now.

I have to get nosey here.

Please tell us about your tank.
How many fish of what sizes?
How much water does it hold?
What filter are you using?
What water conditioner?
How do you maintain your tank?

Happy water is the very most important thing in keeping goldies healthy. They're very messy fish.

During the first month or so after a new tank is set up, there are a set of bacteria that have to get up to speed to convert the ammonia that fish produce (toxic) into nitrIte (still toxic) and then into nitrAte (less toxic). It's really important during the first month to test your water and use partial water changes to keep ammonia and nitrIte low till the biofilter bugs catch up. Do you have any water tests?

OK, thanks for the reply!

I'll answer the questions as best as I can:

We have 2 fish- both about 2 inches big from head to end of tail (a red capped oranda and a spotted oranda I think)

The tank is a 2.5 gallon Mini Bow tank (I know they'll grow out of it but we didn't have money to immediately get a bigger tank so it will have to do for now).

We're using the Whisper Micro Filter (came with the tank)

Water Conditioner that came with the tank- Jungle "Start Right"

tank maintainance- partial water changes a couple of times (haven't had it very long). I did a partial (probably 30-40%) change Friday night after Goldy died and was removed from the tank. I used a hose thing that you move up and down and it creates a vacuum effect- I think it's a siphon or something? I forgot what that's called

Goldy was found on the bottom of the filter. It isn't a hose or anything though, just a box-type thing. My hubby thought she was too small to swim against it and that's how she died, but she'd been in the tank with it for awhile with no problems so I tend to think she died and then got pulled over there. I'm hoping it's just cuz she was a feeder fish and not bred well rather than a serious problem that could spread to the other fish.

On Saturday I took some water to Petco for analysis but I didn't get the details of it. (next time I will). They told me the ph was, um, I don't remember if it was too high or too low but I bought a ph corrector additive thing they recommended. They said I had some ammonia but it could be due to the fish dieing in the water. I also bought some aquarium salt that they recommended and added a little of that to the tank yesterday as well.

Since I just did a partial change Friday night, I haven't done anything to the tank since then, I'm just trying to watch the fish and see if they seem healthy. (Should I do another partial change tomorrow maybe?) I wish I could know for sure how they are doing. I don't think I can afford to spend $30 on all the test strips (I read someone's estimate on those in another thread) but I don't want another fish to die on us. My daughter was SOOO upset about Goldy- I mean loud sobbing for HOURS literally! ( I was thinking of bringing another water sample in to be tested now that I added the salt and the ph tablet, and just doing that as often as I can get down to the petstore until I can get my own strips. I don't know if they'd be too happy about that though.

Thanks for the info on the food. I might like making some food but I don't think I'd want to make a whole bunch at once. Are there any recipes for just a week's worth or so?

~mochashello

Yea... most likely he died first.

It's hard to know what to do without knowing your levels of
ammonia
nitrIte
pH
KH
GH
at minimum. Next time, have them tell you specific numbers for each.

I'm *very* uncomfortable adjusting pH without knowing the starting and ending points and understanding what it is that you're adding to change pH. Large pH swings can kill fish fast. Goldies can tolerate quite a range of water pH as long as it's stable. Stability is the key. Look on the bottle and tell me what it's called.

I think you're thinking about the liquid tests kits. They're more expensive when you buy the entire kit, but they last longer, so they're really cheaper in the long run. Strips shouldn't run you more than 5 or 6 bucks. There's not as accurate, but anything right now would be better than not knowing. If you could pick up one of the strips with multiple tests in it and a 2 bottle liquid ammonia tester, that would give us the info needed to help keep the water from getting toxic.

your water conditioner sounds fine. It would be good if you'd pick up some prime. It does the same thing as the jungle conditioner, plus it helps to make ammonia and nitrIte less toxic and you're going to need help with that.

trying to get your biofilter bugs up to speed in that small of a tank with 2 goldies in it without it getting toxic is going to be a challenge. If you can find it, biospira might help. it's pricey tho. or get the pet store to sell you some gravel out of one of their established tanks. Make sure the tank and its inhabitants look healthy.

I think what I'd do would be to change out about half the water daily... every other day max. That'll help dilute any ammonia or nitrIte and help keep things from getting as toxic while the biobugs are getting up to speed. Be sure to use your water conditioner and keep the temperature of the change water within a couple of degrees of the water in the tank. I'd also add 1 level teaspoon of the salt per gallon of water. predissolve it in tank water and then add slowly. That'll help protect against nitrIte poisoning. When you do the partial water changes, just dose the salt to get 1 t per gallon in the change water. that way you'll keep a constent .1% solution.

For now, I wouldn't disturb the gravel when changing the water... but would use a turkey baster to suck out any visable poop.

and do feed sparingly. once every couple of days for now would be best. and hide the flakes, so only you can feed them or let the kiddo feed them if you supervise to make sure they don't get overfed. The more you feed, the more ammonia builds up.

If it were me, I'd get a large rubbermaid container and a hang on the back filter with 2 filter pads in it or one of the penguins with a biowheel. That way you have a lot more water to dilute the ammonia and nitrIte while your biobugs are getting up to speed and a lot larger surface area for the biofilter bugs to grow on.

Ok. It's called "Correct pH" by Jungle. It says it maintains pH of aquarium water between 6.8-7.2

I'll look into the test strips. And I'll put some water out tonight to use for a partial change tomorrow.

I wouldn't be spending all this time online and effort with the fish if I truly didn't want them, but it sure is a big responsibility to dump on someone by sending their kid home with a new pet without permission first. I had a bunch of fish die when I was a kid and I hate seeing my daughter go through the turmoil so I want to do everything I can to take good care of these fish for her! Besides, they're awfully pretty.

Thanks for your input, and I'll post anything I find out about my water after I get test strips. I guess I should post it in a different category than "Food" though, huh? lol

~mochashello

I've never tried that Jungle product. and had no luck finding it's ingredients. Did find a couple of reviews via a web search that weren't great.

Once you get over the hump of getting the tank cycled (if you can get that tank cycled), it'll be a lot easier. Hang in there.

Yea... water quality would probably be the best place for this.

Yeah I agree with the previous poster. I don't think you should use PH adjusters because Goldfish can adjust to a wide range of Ph. The best thing is that the PH is stable or always the same. I heard the PH adjusters make you PH bounce back and forth after awhile. (Example: Say your PH is 8.0 and you use adjusters to make it 7.0. After a short time. it bounces back to 8.0. So you use the adjuster again to make it 7.0 and repeat the pattern. This would stress out the fish. Not sure if adding it early before it happens is good either. I'm weary of adding too many chemicals into the water.)

I find feeding only floating food or only pellets and flakes make some fancy goldfish float to the surface a lot. They have trouble swimming down and sometimes get flipped upside down. The single tailed goldfish don't seem to have problems with this at least not with me.

You will probably have trouble keeping the goldfish healthy in the 2.5gallon so I would really recommend you get at least a 20 gallon to those 2 fish or two 10 gallons or those big rubbermaid containers(cheapest). Click on the Ten Steps to Healthy Goldfish on the homepage of this site.
10 Gallons are $12.99 here.
I've seen some clear 18 gallon Rubbermaid containers(target brand) at Target for $5 so you might want to get one of those instead.

Hmmm, I don't know where I would put a tank that big. My little one is on top of a book case. I have a cat and a puppy too and not a lot of space. Hmmm. I guess I'd have to just give it some thought and try to come up with something.

When we were buying this tank, I couldn't find any tanks that cheap. Even this little one was like $30 or pretty close to that. They all come with filters and food and all this stuff. Maybe I wasn't looking in the right place. But if I did get, say, a 10 gallon tank... would I be able to use the filter that I have now which came with the 2.5 Mini Bow, or would that not be big enough? Then I have to buy a new tank and filter? We're pretty strapped for cash right now... :crp

Thanks for all the help! I really appreciate it and I will do my best within my means to follow all your advice.

~Mochashello

Is there a nnnnnn near where you live, nnnnnn usually has affordable fish tanks. I once got a 10 or 20 gallon tank there for only $34.

You'd need a bigger filter. For 2 goldfish, you'll need a filter rated at a minimum of 200 gallons per hour. You can get an aquaclear 50/200 (a 200 gph filter) for around $20, which will work well.

Do you need that much filtration while they are still 2 inch little fish? Or just eventually will need that much as they grow to full size?

Ok... I just got my test strips and got my results which aren't too good. I'll post this in the Water Chemistry section too, but since I was asked about it in this thread I'll write it here first. I tested my tank water, my tap water, and then my tank water again after a 60% change. Here are the results:

tank before:
Ammonia= 5!!
Ph= 8.4
Kh= 300
Gh=300
NitrItes= 1
NitrAtes= 20

tap water:
Ph- 8.2ish (not as dark as tank water but bottle colors are hard to match up)
Kh- 150ish (same reason as above)
Gh=300
NitrItes=0
NitrAtes= 20 (?? why am I reading trace amounts in my tap water??)

tank after change:
Ammonia= .5-3ish (hard to read)
Ph=8.4 (should I add my "Correct pH" tablets now?)
Kh-300ish
Gh=300
NitrItes= .5
NitrAtes= 20

Well, the ammonia is down but still high so I wonder if I should do yet another water change before I go to bed tonight or wait 24 hours?? Thanks for the advice- I'm going to post this in the proper water spot now.

~Mochashello

well it sounds like your trying realy hard to kepp the littel guys healthy. i know its super hard to find the cash for the fish tank stuff its realy exspencive. were do you live i have a 20 gallon and filter depending on were you live i might be able to sell and send yah. but for now if you have a big container you can put the fish in there as a temp home. i know it dsont look too nice but they will do better.

Yeah, you will need a better filter. I would try for the Penguin Filters or the Aquaclear that valkyrie suggested. A 200 gph filter for 2 goldfish. I tend to avoid the large pet chain stores like Petsmart/Petco when shopping for fish supplies like filters and tanks because it seems to be more expensive. You can buy it cheaper at their sites online than the store even with shipping and handling or even cheaper at local fish/aquarium stores.. (example: one thing cost $104 in their online site, but at their store it was $160 and only $95 at local fish store )

Things are cheaper at local fish/aquarium stores most of the time so I'd compare the prices to see which place is cheaper.

Ok thanks for the information you guys!

BTW, I bought my fishies some frozen brine shrimp yesterday and they seemed to like that. I haven't fed them today to help keep the ammonia down but it's hard not to feed them... it's about the only interaction you get with fish.

~Mochashello

Feeding time is cool. Just wait till thye get bigger and you can hand feed them. Mine know that the first part of their evening feeding will be a bite of shrimp that they eat from my hand.

Be aware the high protein foods like shrimp result in more ammonia.
Veggies like shelled green peas, green beans and lima beans chopped into bite sized pieces might be better for now.

I thought I might suggest that maybe you try yard sales or want ad5 in the paper. My friend just stumbled on to a yard sale and the lady had a huge aquarium, stand, filter, all accessories, ornaments, with 4 healthy fish in it. My friend asked her what she wanted and she said "what can you give me?". The women sold it to my friend for $35.00! Unbelievable. I guess the woman was tired of the aquarium and just wanted to be rid of it. So might be worth checking around.

Queenie- oooh, cool! I'll keep an eye out- we have lots of yard sales around here.

DataGuru- as far as the high protein shrimp n stuff, I didn't know that before I just made a batch of easy gel food with it. oh well, I'll feed it sparingly for now (if it even comes out ok! lol)

~mochashello

*laugh* How'd it turn out?