Hi guys. Here are my answers:

Ammonia-0, Nitrites-o, PH-7.6, Nitrates-20-60 (sometimes that one is hard to read).

46 gal tank with an Emperor 400 running on it.
Prime added to it when I do water changes.
No meds in there right now.
Right now I feed Hikari Ornada Gold, peas, Lionhead.
Unusual behavoir: Sapphire (the one with the problems right now) has had on and off again SBD. This started over resorbing eggs. She has also became "lazy" she swims slower than normal since all this began. I have been fasting and feeding peas for over 3 weeks. I have not seen any SBD symptoms in about 3 days. She eats, but not as much as she use to.

I do a 50% water change once a week.
There is 5 orandas in the tank ranging from 4-6 inches. No new fish.
CB has a split in a fin, I believe from rough playing (has been trying to spawn with Smudge lately).
Sapphire is the one I'm seeking help on. Her RT eye around the top of the "eyeball" looks swollen. It is the same color of the rest of her and doesn't really look like popeye, but what else could it be?
I have noticed that her "cheeks" have begun to look bigger and are now Droopy. Does that make sense?
She is open mouth breathing alittle more than normal, that started today.

All levels from the tap are 0. The chloramines I don't know.

Any help would be wonderful. I don't have a hospital tank right now, I'm going to see what I can do about that in the next few days.
I'm going to start them on Medigold tomorrow.
What else should I do?

Thanks guys.

PS Could it possibly be just wen growth? And not anything else?
Has anyone ever made a comparison to fat droopy cheeks and dropsy?

Laurie, when you say her cheeks become fatter and droopy, does that include a little more headgrowth towards the gills, or ist that just in the face? Just wondering, because if the headgrowth advances too much towards and over the gills, the fish has problems moving them, and therefore doesn't get enough oxygen, which would explain the gasping for air a bit more.
Popeye really should look like the shape of a bagle, with the eye ball being the middle of that "wheel". If the swelling is just on one side of the eye, not all around, could she have run into something in the tank - ornament, filter intake?.....

Andrea, Yes her wen is covering part of her gills. It really has always been that way, so I'm not sure if it is worse. It is hard to describe, the little "flappy" part is barely visible and sometimes when she is breathing it will curl under and stick. Does that make sense?
Her cheek growth is really just in the front.
What is a bagle?
I suppose she could have run into something in the last few days. She has never been graceful and since the SBD, she has been all over the place.

You have never tried a bagel, Laurie? With cream cheese and some chives?
Okay, then here comes some proper american food, at least something that keeps me away from the egg mc muffins...
http://www.brueggers.com/cheese.html It basically looks like a donut, exept its made from bread dough.
Her cheeks could have start to grow a little more. It is on both sides, right? Or just on the side where the eye appears swollen?

OH gosh I'm so embarassed. A bagle, duh, yes I know what a bagel is. Sorry my brain is not with me right now (left it at work). I actually thought that "bagel" was a fish term. *red face*,
The big cheeks are the same on both sides.
The reason I am conserned about them being bigger and more droopy is, I had an oranda that I noticed this trait appearing and then dropsy followed it. She didn't make it.
Do you think Medigold would be ok to start?
Also I'm so afraid you are going to tell me to trim the wen around the gills, are you??????
What else if anything do you think I need to do?

Sure, go ahead with the Medigold, Laurie. If the eye got hurt someplace, a round of antibiotics doesn't do any harm and keeps the nasty bacteria in check. You see any red or injury on the eye? Salt of course comes to mind as well....
How bad is the growth on the gills? Trimming around the gills would be a really tricky thing, and last resort, to do. Its a delicate area, and playing around there with a razor or scissor is nothing to mess around with....

Thanks, The eye itself looks perfectly fine. No blood or bulging, and the "swelling" itself is the same. No blood or "injury" look to it.

Now what would you call last resort with trimming the gills? Believe me I"m very well aware how delicate that would be. (don't want to ever have to do it), but I'm nervous it may be a problem in the future (if not now).
Do you think keeping her with the others is wrong as well? I so don't have the money to get a hospital tank.

A good example when its time to get the scissors out - the fish constantly, all day long, gasping desperately for air, the gill flaps moving rapidly in an effort to get oxygen in, the fish on top of the water all day long, and otherwise being lethargic from lack of oxygen. Some have it so badly that they basically lose body functions, they just float around. Somewhat like us humans feeling the effects of less oxygen in higher mountain areas.....
As for keeping her separate, if she is not bullied by anybody and gets her fair share of food, I wouldn't single her out. I would just remove anything she could bump into, and cover the intake tube with foam or stocking. There is however a simple piece of plastic aida that you can use as a "room devider" if you feel she is more comfortable by herself right now.

I think I will keep her with the others. Jester and SMudge seem to hang out with her. I think they know something isn't right.

As for gills and oxygen. She doesn't hang out on the surface, but most definetly "hang" out floating around all day. Very lethargic is a good way to put it. I attributed the "lack of activity" just from SBD and not the gills but I guess this could be the problem? Oh man I guess I"m gonna have to watch her a little more and determine what is going on with this.

Thanks gotta go to bed but I"ll check in tomorrow night and update you.

Aack! Laurie - what is this?????

Sadly I haven/t had to treat for this yet! (or maybe not so sadly.....)

If you need me to google on it - just let me know!!!

Oh your poor fishy!



Jenn

Good Gosh Laurie!!!! I hope it's not popeye,but that is treatable,anyway... Look in my thread about Louie. Erika and koko both posted really good pics of popeye. Post soon with a pic from hubby so we can see what you mean!

OH Gosh, Help Help. She is showing signs of Dropsy!!!!!!!
I came home to her rapidly breathing and pineconing!!! She is just hanging out in the middle of the tank. Above the eye is swollen much more than this morning, it looks to be fluid filled, sorta transparent. It is about 3 times the size it was this morning.
Her belly looks like it is going to explode.

What do I do???? I'm so scared, I don't want to go thru this again. Not my Sapphy!!

Okay hun does she look like this in a way?

Dropsy?

No, it isn't Popeye. Thought it might be yesturday but not now.

Just looks like the top of her eye (the top part of the rim) is 4 times the size it should be, and looks like it is filled with water or fluid. Does that make sense?
And she looks to be sooo uncomfortable. Her body is so swollen, she just looks like she is going to explode. Her breathing is very rapid tonight.
The only spare tank I have is a 29 gal, Hubby is setting it up now in case I want to put her in there. I hate to isolate her, I would hate for her to die alone. (she looks like she is dying before my eyes) Believe me I know the look.
The other fish are staying near her, being gentle. Almost in a comforting way.
What do I do? I have a rubberlip in there, and I know salt is hard on them, should I add it anyway?
Thanks for helping me, I'm so upset.

Are her scales coming up off of her Hun?

So your saying without he eye that its like a half moon coming out of the eye sac right.....Instead of like Dedes photo its only have the bubble?

Yes her scales are sticking out. All around her gills.
Both sides.

To the eye quest. Yes, that is a way to describe it. But only the top half of it.

Okay hun you got the first signs of Dropsy coming and since you got it in the first stage this is good. Since we can try to nip it in the butt.

Well let me ask you this first. how many fish are in her tank?

Do you have any hollow ornaments in the tank?

What kind of fish in the tank?

Do you have another filter and a heater?

Do you have Epsom salt?

Do you have Maracyn or Maraycn 2\|?

OK there is 4 more orandas in the tank. All about 4-6 inches each.
No hollow ornaments, just one rock bridge type thing. And fake plants.
I do have another filter and another heater (the heater isn't the best in the world). The filter is dry and will have to be seeded from the main tank.
No epsom salt, can get it if you say go get it.
No maracyn or maracyn2

Have medigold food.

Okay since you got so many other fish in the tank I would place her in the other tank.

Take 40% of the water from the main tank and the filter pad ( with no Carbon)if you can from that filter and use it in the new tank and set up the old filter and start to use that on the old tank. Also set up the heater to 79F.

Let it run for the night. Feed her Medigold to-nite 4-5 pellets if she will eat it.

Then tomorrow I would add her to the tank by floating her for 10 mins in the baggy, then let some of the water in her bag and float her for another 5 mins do this 3 times to get her use to the temp.

Then add 4 1/8 of a teaspoon of Epsom salt to the tank. Then I would get some Maracyn 2 and do the treatment for that, then after that treatment is done do a water change of 40% add carbon back to the tank, for 24 hours. Then I would do the Maracyn #1 for that treatment and during this whole time feed her the Medigold and if you want I can give you the better of meds (metro-gold) which I think works better and I have plenty to give. Feed her this for 21 days with nothing else to eat. Keep the temp up this will help her emiun system deal with this and the Epsom salt will help with the swelling

Then when shes getting better I will help you get her off the heater

Ok first I forgot to add that her wen (eariler in the thread), I had mentioned that it is starting to cover her gills. Now with her so swollen, I can barely see her gills. With the scales sticking out right there and the swelling, I don't think she is gettting much air, is there anything I should do about that?

The filter is diff. than the one on the main tank, so I'll add some gravel and I filled the new 29 gal tank with 2/3 main tank water. The nitrates are at 60 right now in that tank.
The temp in the main tank is 75-76 deg. right now, so that won't be a big jump for her.

Oh the epsom salt is that the right dose for a 29 gal? Not second guessing you, just very bad at math myself. I'll get the Maracyn tomorrow.
Do you think I should leave her in the main tank tonight?

And yes, I would love the metrogold. I'm very limited on what I can get right now. If you need my address I can pm it to you.

Thanks again, Is there any thing else I need to do tonight? I'm really unsure if she'll be here in the morning.

As of right now I don't think you can do anything for the gills, since the only thing you could do is trimming and I think that would just stress her out allot right now.

As for the Epsom salt When I mean by that is over the treatment time Hun so I would do is 2 1/8s of a teaspoon with the M2 and then 2 1/8 teaspoon with the M1.


I wouldn't move her tonite unless you can get he spare tank stable tonite, placing her in there with out the stableness will cause more of a problem.....

The food Hun please send me your Addy and I will get it out tomorrow for you. I will do Priority so it will get there in less than 2 days
sorry my head is swimming

Ok, I will see how the tank is tonight and move her if it is stable.

We'll go get the Maracyn 1 and start that tomorrow, this will be the first time I use that so do I do the Maracyn 1 tx and when it is done do the Maracyn 2 tx, or do I do them together?

I think I will get the salt tonight, and maybe start that if she is able to handle the move to the iso tank. Doesn't epsom salt draw out fluid?
The address is on it's way via PM ing.

Yeah the Epsom salt will help with the swelling just like it does for us

I would do the M2 first then the M1 but make sure you do a water change between the two and run the filter with carbon in it for 24 hours this way we get most of the meds out and her a break. These meds are alittle hard on the fish but work wonders for bacterial infections. Don't mix since they are hard on them and I would think it would do a over load on her system.

Thank you so much, it is much clearer what I need to do. I have matched the temp in the tank within 4 degrees, so I May switch her tonight, I'll be up for awhile, even though I have now been up 20 hours. I don't think I could rest tonight anyway.
The hubby is on his way to the store to get the epsom salt, so it'll be in the tank within the hour, hopefully.

Thanks again.

Oh she is now floating upside down and starting to sink to the bottom.
Not good huh???

Has she eatten the medigold?

Does she have a place were there isnt any current to bother her hun?

Oh gosh I forgot to give the medigold. I'll go do that right now.

I think she does, I have the filter turned down a bit and the current doesn't seem to bad. When she is on her back, she doesn't have to "tread" water to stay in one place so that is good right? Means not a strong current?

yeah you want her to rest as much as she can right now. I would also try to keep the lights off of her right now and let her sleep..... I will get that food out and send it Priority so it will get there faster......

My fish Dede says " I wish you the best"

shes been threw this 2 times now and is very stubborn and I'm sure we can get your fish threw this Hun

Thanks, tell DEDE she is a very lucky girl to have such a wonderful mommy.

I gave her the medigold and she wouldn't eat it, the others are having a field day, she was interested, but didn't want to eat.
I even held her and tried to give her a few to make sure she got them, but she wouldn't eat.
I hope I didn't stress her.

PS Andrea will be so proud I was able to finally hold her. YEAH

Oh, Laurie, I am so sorry about the poor darling! Dropsy sure can make havoc of things and come on quickly!
Koko has given you some excellent advice, and I would follow it to the dot. There isn't much else you can do right now, except wait and see. To give you some hope, look at this poor soul in the picture, before and after. There is a chance for your fish, if that much worse fish has survived....
Dropsy - before and after the treatment

Metromed is really the better medication for this, and its great that Koko is able to send you some. That will help so much!
to you and your darling, keep us posted!

Oops, completely missed that part where you held her!! That is a big step forward! YES!

I know when I first tried to hold my fish I was scared

Since she doesn't want to eat I would just try to keep her calm and try to keep the others from pushing her around.....I think Right now she just needs some sleep......As soon as you think the other tank is good for her lets get her over there and let her rest....Keep trying to feed her, her meds tomorrow, and when mine show up feed her this in stead.

Oh laurie your Baby... I believe she'll make it! Hang in there Girl! (the both of you!!)

Thanks for all your help KOko and I will do as you say. I'll let you get some rest yourself now, I think we are at a wait and see, so rest for me too, I doubt I"ll get much tonight. I'll keep you updated.

Ranchu,
Thank you for your support as well.
OMG, that picture is horrible!! That is how swollen Sapphy is, but not as much pineconing yet. Hopefully she will do as well as that fish. Thanks for the hope. It isn't very high right now.

I'm pretty proud of myself for grabbing a hold of her. But then again, I am a tech this shouldn't be a problem. Thank God I'm good in a crisis, gotta do what ya gotta do in an emergency.

I'll update you all in the morning. Thanks again.
Have a good night.

Well she made it thru the night, but she looks terrible. More swollen and now 2/3 of her scales are pineconing.
I tried to feed her, I"m not sure but I think she ate 2 of the 3 pellets I put in there, but she didn't do it right away though.
Her breathing is more struggled, I think the swelling is cutting off the gills most of the way.
Also this morning she has a very pink lump in her "armpit" above the left pectoral fin. It is the size of a pencil eraser. Any ideas on this lump?
I don't think she is resting very well. She circles the tank upside down constantly now, she'll get caught in the bubbles and it shoots her to the top and she'll swim around the tank. I don't think the current is too strong, I think she is so uncomfortable she is fighting it, like when a dog has bloat they can't get comfortable so they are restless.
I am heading to the lfs for the Maracyn2.
I'll update again tonight before bed.
Keep us in your thoughts.

Oh God Laurie - that sounds horrible!!!

Prayers & hugs!!!!!



Jenn

Thanks Jenn,

She is about the same from this morning.
The "lump" that I found this morning seems to have busted open. Don't know if this is good or bad? I have the Maracyn2 in there so........waiting to see what happens.
Thank you for the support everyone, it is very much appreiciated.

I'm afraid I have no further suggestions for you, but it looks like you are getting the best help you can, and I really really hope your fish pulls through.

Thanks fugly I hope she does too.

Just to let you know the med is coming your way......:thumbup

OMG Laurie...I hate when I'm working!!!!! How is Sapphie today? How is she responding to the meds?

Laurie how is Sapphie today?? Are the meds working??? Did the food get there yet??


*Fingers Crossed*

Jenn

Sorry I was unable to update everyone yesturday. It was a very busy day.........
Sapphire is still hanging in there. She is fighting all the way. Yesturday she was even more swollen than before, how this is possible I don't know because she looked like she was going to explode before, now she really looks like a Macy's Day Balloon. All of her scales are now pineconing, sticking straight out. I have no idea how she is able to breath, being so big her wen and stomach are covering her gills. She is upside down most of the time. Although to day her breathing seems less labored, I'm hoping it is a sign she is starting to improve and not a sign her body is shutting down. Only time will tell.
Her attitude seems a little improved today as well, that or she doesn't care anymore. There isn't the panic as on Thurs and Fri. That is good, 'cause it gives me a chance to calm as well. My stress level comes and goes as to what hers is. Guess you could say I feel her pain.
I am worried she won't eat, I know Koko had said to feed her, but she isn't interested in anything right now. So she hasn't eaten anything since last Wed. I don't want to force her yet, I'm affraid holding her to do this will stress her, so I'm waiting a day or 2 more. If anyone knows a different approach I"m open to suggestions.
So I guess that is all for now, we are on day........day 3 of the Maracyn2 treatment. After that we'll switch to the Maracyn. Keep the prayers coming we need them.
Laurie

Hows the heat hun what do we have that at hun?

Hun I would Add one more dose of the Epsom salt this will help the swelling some more.

As for her food , I would place one pellet in the tank and see if she will eat it some what if not the meds in the food will help her to when she will breath it in and out. But only place one pellet in there at a time or it will spoil your water


"6. STARVATION
To build immunity fish need protein and energy. They need GOOD food with antibiotics in it. Fasting them is not helpful. As long as fish are pooping, they should be force fed if they are not eating. A fish has enough reserves for a couple to 3 days, after that, get out the syringe. If the fish wont eat the romet B but eat a little chopped shrimp can be fooled by soaking romet in shrimp oil or other fish oil. "

http://puregold.aquaria.net/pg/disease/sym...name.htm#dropsy

We need her to eat how many days is it now hun?

Ok the heat unfortunatly bounces around a bit so I'm trying to keep it about 79 like you said. I caught it once at 82, I assume this is too high? And Don't let it fall below 75. The heater I have is not the best in the world. So I fight it all day.

She hasn't eating since Wed or thurs. I have been putting 1-2 pellets in once a day and try to scoop them out when she doesn't eat. I was starting to think I may have to force feed her, but I don't want to stress her. How should I force feed her? I have thought about smashing up the medigold and adding a little tank water and using a syringe, would this work? Or what would you suggest?

As for the heater, what should I do, this one sucks it will not hold a steady temp. I'm afraid to take the good one off the main tank, I don't want 5 sick fish. Do you have any suggestions as to fix this heater to stay at one temp.
Oh also, I have the salt in the tank, I did the 1/8 teaspoon/5 gal, no water change, so you want me to add another full dose?

Thanks Laurie

For the food that sounds good, make it into a paste like for her not to watery or it will just go threw the gills.

The heat can go to 82F sometimes my Dede gets at the 83F mark so don't worry Hun just don't let it get beyond the 85F that would be like us at 100F

If you need another heater let me know I have another one that I don't use

I would up the salt this might help the swelling some more since she is trying. Then resume back to the regular programmed schedule

koko......Keeping her fingers crossed

The heater sounds good, I could return it to you when we were done.

I will try the food tonight.
How long should I leave the salt in there? I'm not sure if I understand what to do exactly. Do I add the aditional salt for a few days and then when I do the carbon to remove the Maracyn2 do a water change to get rid of the salt?

OH also, do I hold her while feeding her? I assume so, she is just so swollen I don't know if this will hurt her.

Yeah leave the salt in there and then do the water change/ carbon then the M1. Like we were going to do. I think the salt levels need to go up a bit

you will have to hold her do you have a plastic surenge for her to feed her?

Ok I think I got it. Do you think I should have the salt in the tank when I do the Maracyn treatment?

I do have a syringe, I will do it. HOw much do you think I should give her? .5cc or .5mls? I don't want to stuff her.
Oh I have only seen her "potty" once, and it was a thick white cloudy stringy poo, and it was today we spotted it.

I would say .3ml hun this way we can do it slowly. I would do this once the first day and then if shes taking to that well, lets do it twice a day until she can eat on her own. I was looking at my ml and .5ml is something my Pharoh can eat and I know when a fish is sick they dont eat as much plus shes pretty bloated.


I would add the salt to the tank when you do the M1 but not before....