Hello - My two goldfish's fins are disappearing. They aren't ragged much, mainly slowly dissolving away. There are reddish areas/streaks on the tail edge. Each fish has one red area/streak. There are no white lines, spots of any kind, etc. Eyes are clear. They are acting just fine and perky, eating great, swimming happily. No unusual behaviour.

I have a four year old 30 gallon tank with a Penguin 330 filter with bio-wheels. I (only) have two large common goldfish (four years old). They are about 8 inches, nose to base of tail. Four years ago, when they were won at a fair, they were about an inch, inch and a half - NOTE to all new goldfish owners - they really do grow FAST! My ammonia and nitrate levels are 0. My tap water pH is 7.2. My tank pH (as of an hour ago) is 6.8. Yesterday I did a 30% water change. Usually, I do a 50-60% water change monthly, but decided to increase to 30% every two weeks. The only additive I use is Mar Chlor chlorine remover. Previously, I used Crystal Clear with the Mar Chlor, but stopped months ago. My tank temperature is about 78 (summer) and drops to 74-76 in the winter. I have plastic plants.

The fish are fed twice a day a combination of Hikari lionhead sinking pellets and Hartz flakes. I cut out the flakes last week as they got wet from the Mar Chlor leaking. Plus the fish would take mouth full of flakes, then go to the bottom looking for pellets, leaving the flakes on top.

I should mention I had a third goldfish which died about 4-5 months ago. It was 6 inches and missing its eyes every since I had it. It had problems locating food and would bump around into the walls, decorations..., but the other two left it alone, so there were no problems in the tank. I fed it the flakes, he went to the top for food, the other two would go to the bottom for pellets. It went from gold to white about a year ago. It developed very ragged fins and died about six months after the ragged fins. Generally, it didn't swim much, spending the majority of the day floating at the top of the tank, with its back out of the water (?) I suspect it died of dropsy because it looked like a pinecone at death.

My pH level has been consistently low, at 6.0. When I first noticed the fins disappearing, I added pH Up. The pH rose a bit, but went back to 6.0 the next day. I kept adding pH Up and the same thing would happen, right back to 6 the next day. I read as long as the pH is consistent for the fish, not to worry if it is too low, so I stopped playing with the pH.

Since the blind fish died, I have been keeping a close eye on the other two's fins. I thought I was seeing (or not seeing) things, but there is a bit of ragged edge and the red areas, so something is up.

Six weeks ago, I started twice a month water changes (30%) rather than the monthly (50%), in an attempt to resolve the fin issue. The pH remained low at 6. and today I was pleasantly surprised with 6.8 pH. This is the first near normal reading.

Yesterday, after the 30% tank cleaning, changing filter pads, removing gunky Penguin filter and cleaning it... I took out the charcoal, added 7 TBS aquarium salt, one tablespoon of Melafix (just saw it expired 10/03) and two tablespoons of Stress Coat.

I assume the rising pH is either one of the additives or generally improved water conditions due to more frequent changes. I do not plan on replacing the salt in future water changes. Is that correct, no salt necessary for goldfish tanks?

My question is what is up with their tails? Could it be highly contagious tail rot from the dead white fish? Is it the pH? Should I add anything to keep the pH up?
Am I treating the tail rot adequately (with the expired Melafix)? Have you another product with better results? If it is tail rot, what is an indicator the medicines are working? Will I see the tail growing and how quickly will that happen?

Thank you for your time.

sounds like tailrot, which is a bacterial infection usually down to bad water conditions but sometimes no-one knows why. you will need to do more water changes, 30% each week, but while you are treating them you might need to do more. maracyn2 should help and salting the water to stop any secondary infections. Im not sure if you can salt the water at the same time as using maracyn, someone else can maybe help you. The important thing here is that water changes need to happen more often as your fish are growing larger the more waste they are producing. just wondering where your source of water is coming from as the ph is pretty low. is it tap or from a well? as you have said yourself they get used to a stable ph. and keep posting

Over time your buffering capacity (KH) gets used up and pH drops. The rising pH is most likely because of the increased water changes. Do you have a test for KH?

There's no way your nitrAte is 0 given the amount of water you've been changing out. I'd bet it's pretty high at this point. I'd suggest continuing the weekly 50% water changes. Do you vacuum the tank when you do your partial water changes?

For the fin rot, you can use a soft brush and clean the tail with hydrogen peroxide, then swab the area with triple antibiotic cream. That and getting your water happy with more frequent partial water changes should do the trick.

Thanks for the quick reply.

My water comes right out of the tap. 7.2 is low? Should I continue with the Melafix for a week (as directed) and then add Maracyn 2 after a 30% water change? I suspect bad water condition is the reason for the rot. I have been neglectful since the water is clear and it is a pain for me lugging buckets. I started writing "change water" on my calendar as a reminder to do it regularly.

I overfeed too. Or I think I overfeed. I never see uneaten food, but I think they eat a lot. I stopped the flakes, so maybe that will help.

I have to say despite the rot, they appear very happy and active.

<_< sorry, but i dont know what melafix is for. the ph out the tap is ok for goldies. wait a couple of days before going on to maracyn2, and try not to change too much of your filter media in one go as you need the bacteria in your filter. Maybe change half of it every 2 weeks if possible or rinse out in used water when you do water change.

I have Aquarium Pharmaceuticals master test kit. I tested for KH (for the first time) and I am not sure what the results are. I added one drop of solution. The directions said it would turn blue with the first drop. It turned pale, pale yellow.

The directions said if the water sample contains only 1 degree dKH, the solution will turn from clear to its yellow endpoint after the first drop is added. The test is complete when the water turns from blue to bright yellow. It never reached bright yellow. The first drop turned it pale yellow.

I added eight drops to get it to a deep yellow, not bright. Eight drops is 143.2 ppm KH. I have no idea if I reached the endpoint with one drop.

I also tested the general hardness and the directions said the first drop would change the water to orange. The end water should turn green. First drop it was the palest, pale green. Another no conclusion test...

You are right, nitrItes are 0. I vacuum the tank, stir it up and use a net to strain out the bits until it is looking crystal.

Ummm, I can't imagine holding fish and swabbing it with my free hand. These guys are the size of my hand. I am sure I would do more damage than good. I even get nervous if I bump one while cleaning. Afraid to disturb their slime coat and then get ICK.

So is the general opinion Maracyn 2? I will have to go buy some.

What did you mean by filter media? I use pads that I toss when water splashes over this certain area, signaling the pads are gunked and need tossing. As far as the charcoal baskets, I dump them monthly and replace with fresh. Usually I avoid water changes and replacing the pads/charcoal at the same time. The filter box looked slimed and I figured since I was medicating the tank for rot, I would clean the filter box too. I only rinsed the bio-wheels, where the good bacteria are lurking.

hi there.

im sorry you seem to be having troubles with your goldies.

well, first off, ill start by telling you that this is curable without medications. your problems most likely lie in the fact that your nitrAtes are very high. the only way to remove nitrates is to perform large waterchanges. if you dont have a kit for nitrAtes, i highly suggest that you get one. if you dont know the nitrate level of your tankwater, theres no way to tell exactly how much water you need to be changing on a weekly or bi-weekly basis.

i concur with datagurus point that the buffering capacity gets used up over time. this is another good reason to perform very regular waterchanges. in doing so, you will keep your ph at a comfortable level as well as keep the nitrates very low. it is not advised to try to tweak the ph if you dont have a firm understanding of what your doing. ph fluctuations can be a very stressful thing for goldfish to go through. to avoid big ph swings, i think your going to have to try doing a 25% waterchange every day until your ph has risen to very near the ph from the tap. once you get there, you can perform as large a waterchange as needed to get the nitrAtes down to 5-10ppm. once at 5-10ppm, youll have a much easier time keeping them low.

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beware of the ph from your tap. it may contain co2 as a buffering agent. once out of the tap, the co2 will begin to dissapate. once the co2 dissapates, the ph can swing. to test for this, try this experiment:
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draw some tapwater into a clean jug with lid (half full), test it. now, shake the jug like mad for a few minutes, retest it. any difference? if not, you are in the clear, no co2. if it changes, most likely, it will drop. in this case, youve got co2 and youll need to go about correcting this buffering defect. just let us know!
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it is well known that pristine water conditions alone can heal a case of finrot. i would definitely go that route before trying to use any medications. once you get your nitrates down to 40ppm or less and the ph back to neutral, the healing should begin.

post back soon!

paul

I purchased a nitrAte testing kit. I repeated it, thinking I must be doing something wrong. It is 20. I even asked my husband what color matched the test - same answer as mine, 20. I won't say it was an exact match, but the closest one.

I did the pH in the bottle test too. I tested my tap water, tested the water in the jug, walked around shaking the jug, tested the shook water, shook the jug some more, tested that AND all (four) of them came back at 7.2.

THEN I tested the tank pH, three times and all three times it came back at 6.6. Meaning, just as I anticipated, it is dropping. Wasn't it 6.8 this afternoon? Still better than the usual 6.0.

I went out and bought the Maracyn-Two tablets.

So what should I do tomorrow?

Hi - I have ( or rather my fish has!) finrot, too, and I'm finding it tough to deal with. It is generally bacterial, and can be caused by any of several bacteria, though my vet says aeromonas is the most likely culprit. Of course you do have to keep your eye on the water quality, too. A friend just told me she cured finrot by isolating her fish (in a bowl, if you can believe it) and changing the water every other day, before dosing them. I guess it might help both of us to do more frequent water changes? (Although I already change out 20-30 percent twice a week - so I don't know)

You do need antibiotics, I think, but, unfortunately, I've had mixed results because some germs are resistant to some pills. My previous fish was cured of finrot by a combo of super-sulfa and medigold food, but my present fishy has something that's resistant to the sulfas. (I know that because I'm trying neosulfex after failing with Maracyn) Maracyn one and two didn't help her, either, but Jungle fungus clear did. If you can get Fungus clear or fungus eliminator, I might try that first. It's pretty strong stuff. But it really depends on exactly which bug they have.

I hope this is some help to you, and that your fish get better.

Oh - about your pH; from what I've read and heard, a drop is an indication of high organic load in the water. If your tap water has CO2 in it (I'm pretty sure mine does), you will see a rise from tap to tank due to offgassing. The more surface movement in your tank, the higher the rise. Adding CO2 lowers pH. This is why heavily planted tanks and ponds often have lower pH in the early morning and high pH in the afternoon - in the morning, in low light, the plants aren't absorbing the CO2 and there's more available to neutralize the water. In the afternoon, the plants take up CO2 and the pH spikes. My vet says he sees some major swings in ponds for this reason. But he also said that if the pH swings only 1 point or thereabouts, goldfish can tolerate it pretty well. Dropping pH is worse than rising. You might want to add a buffer to your water as well as stepping up your changes a little to help prevent drops.

I find KH one of the easiest to read. I'd suspect your KH is VERY low and it's changing colors with the 1st drop of reagent. I'd bet the low pH is contributing to the fin rot issues and the red streaks.

You can add baking soda to slowly increase pH. Adding 1 teaspoon per day (predissolved in tank water, and added slowly) will increase KH by about 2dh. You may not see a full 2dh increase the first time or two, cuz it sounds like KH is depleated. that would mean there is extra acid that will use up the KH at first.

Need to keep KH up above 4dh to keep pH stable. I buffer mine up to about 8dh at each partial water change to keep it above 4dh by the next water change.

Yea, I chose not to do the peroxide/antibiotic cream thing with my moor who's huge and has lots of fin. Tricide Neo is good. It's a dip. Has a potentiator that knocks holes in the bacterial cell wall, letting the antibiotics in, so it doesn't have the issues with resistance you see with MI/MII. It also won't take out your biofilter like putting antibiotics in your tank will.

Wow, I have to say thanks for all the advice. Which do I take and what do I do first?

In my opinion, you need to start getting the pH up ASAP. The acidic pH is contributing to the fin rot issues. It needs to be up in the 7s.

If you do dose with a bath med (MI/MII, or kanamycin, or nitrofurazone), it would be good to do it in a quarantine tank to keep from killing your biobugs and causing more water quality issues. That's partly why I like the tricide neo, you can do the tricide treatment in a gallon baggie, then put the fish in a bucket of tank water for a short rinse, then back in the tank. 1 dip per day for 3 or 4 days is all that's needed and you won't get resistant bugs.

Wow! That tricide neo sounds like a great idea - I think I might get some, rather than switching back to jungle fungus clear and keeping Poly on it for a month, or shipping her off to the vet - who is recommending injections at this point. How quickly does this stuff come once you've ordered it? I'm desparate to get my little one cured!

(What happens with the fungus clear is that she does start to heal - but, once I take her off it, the bug comes roaring back. Nothing so far has healed the rot completely - very frustrating!)

Mrs pman, I don't think you should be discouraged by my experience, because it sounds like you've been doing a good job with your goldies, to have them for so many years. The dropping pH often indicates a lot of carbon/organics in the water, so stepping up your changes to once a week and maybe adding the baking soda and a little salt might help a lot. I think I would try that first. I might also try a bath that works on both gram-positive and gram-negative bacteria. If you can remove your biomedia while you're treating, Fancy Goldfish recommends that - that way, you won't lose the cycle. Sorry I can't help you more - hope your fish get better.

indeed! i really like the sound of that stuff. what a concept!

i hope this stuff works as well as it sounds!

paul

The tricide took care of the finrot in my moor, after nitrofurazone baths combined with feeding medigold failed. In the future, I will be using tricide on any external bacterial issues that come up.

I don't know how long it takes on shipping. Seems like I did 2-3 day ground cuz I was ordering it to have on hand.

I didn't use the entire pack. instead I weighed out enough to make up a quart of tricide solution instead of making the entire gallon. So I have three more quart treatments left in case I need them...

So have you added any baking soda yet?? You need to start raising your KH or pH will crash and your fish will have more serious problems than finrot.

What'd you decide to do on treating the finrot?

Just finished a 60% water change. YES, I added one teaspoon of baking soda a day or two ago and it raised the pH to a steady 7.4. I tested it prior to the water change this a.m. - 7.4 and amazingly, after the water change, still 7.4. No ammonia or nitrites. The nitrate level dropped to 5 ppm! Guess I was reading it right at 20 ppm when I first tested it.

I am still having trouble interpretting the KH. After one drop of reagent, it turns blue as expected. The next drop turns in pale yellow. The directions say it should be bright yellow. Well, the reagent is bright yellow, so the question is how many drops to achieve what shade of yellow? I noticed after 4 drops it stopped getting brighter, so I guess the answer is 4 drops.

This is my fourth day of Melafix. (Melafix is all natural, no antibiotics, won't mess up the tank). I didn't want to use something strong when water quality seems to be the answer.

The Melafix course of therapy is seven days, so I figure I'll finish up the bottle, do another water change, then add the Maracyn 2. If that doesn't work, I have Jungle Fungus Eliminator. I have a bunch of medicines left over from a sick betta.

I didn't add any more salt. What would you advise about salt? Not only just for now, but as a regular additive. It seems salt and goldfish is a controversal topic.

I never had a problem of any kind with my goldies. After the poor blind fish died, I slacked off on cleaning the tank, figuring one less fish... Two fish in a 30 gallon tank... I should also mentioned I stopped testing the tank for about two/three years. I figured as long as the water was crystal and the fish were happy. Guess weekly testing is a good practice.

HOW WILL I KNOW IF THE TAIL ROT IS CURED?

I know every body asks this and I have done my homework, but what should I be doing for my tank regarding how much and how often for water changes? What about pH? Salt? I know my rot is because of my laziness with the water. Sigh.

Thanks for your time and interest.

I read my KH test as the number of drops that it takes to see the color change. Sounds to me like yours reads 2dh. That's still a bit low. How fast KH gets used up depends on the bioload in the tank.

How big are your goldies?

I decide how much water to change based on my nirAte levels (with the goal of keeping them well under 40ppm). If you're using the AP nitrAte test, be sure you're doing all the shaking that it calls for. I also buffer with baking soda at each water change to keep KH at 7 or 8dh because my KH will drop to 4dh by the next water change.

I don't use salt much. as a dip prior to prazi (.6%), as a two-week bath during initial quarantine for parasites (.3%), to prevent nitrIte poisoning during cycling (.1%), and to help a very sick fish have to work less hard to maintain osmotic pressure (.1%). That's about it tho for me and salt. Goldies are fresh water fish. Here's an article on salt on Koko's site.

There's some pics of my black moor's fin rot and its resolutionhere.

How's the tail looking?
What about the red streaks?

Thanks for getting back to me. My goldies are the size of my hand. There are BIG. I mean their bodies are the size of my hand, excluding the tail. As far as the tails, Lumpy's tail looks fabulous compared to mine. On a previous thread, I saw pictures of Bubbles (I think) with tail rot and its tail looks like show quality compared to mine.

I can't say they are getting better. The tails look the same, if not somewhat smaller. I'm telling you, their tails remind me of ice in the sun, melting away. Blood areas are the same. If I had to say either way, I would say they are minimally worse. Now, I'm not talking fray, just disappearing. There is a small area that has tiny holes. Very small on one only. So I would say they are the same, maybe worse.

Water quality (ph, KH) is getting much better. The charcoal is still removed and even after a water change, the water isn't clear as usual. I wouldn't describe it as cloudy by no means, just not sparkling crystal. Yes, I am shaking the beegeezuses out of the nitrAte test, watching the clock.

I'm wondering if I should stop the Melafix and move on to the Maracyn 2.

HOW MUCH BAKING SODA PER GALLON when replacing water?

Now I am worrying...

OK - I haven't yet had to deal with fin rot in a sick goldie - but I had a very bad case in a betta (It got so bad it had almost eaten away all of the main fin).

I knew when the rot was healing when there was a whitish edge at the extreme edge of the fin - you could see where the fin was filling in with new tissue(he's still healing as I type this but it was a really long haul).

If you think it's a bacterial fin rot you may need Maracyn as well as maracyn II (this will cover a wide range of bacteria).

You will need to make sure all of your water params are perfect while the treatment & healing are going on. I base my water changes on the tank params - my rot was so bad that I was checking the water at least once per day.

The maracyn made the water cloudy & I had to remove the carbon before starting the treatment (I also did a largish water change & gravel vac so I could make it through the 5 days without an additional water change as per the directions. ) I also ended up needing other antibiotics but hopefuly those will do it for you!

I've never needed baking soda so I'm not sure how to add that! - Sorry! If I find it in another post - I'll post back.

Hope this helps!



Jenn

I usually test KH in the tank after doing partial water changes and then decide how much baking soda to add to raise KH to 7 or 8dh. Here's the calculator I built that lets you put in how much water, how much you want to increase KH and tells you how much baking soda to add. It will also let you calculate the expected change in pH from your before and after KH values.

Have you tested KH in your tap water? If your tap water KH is high enough, and you do partial water changes more often than you were... that may be enough so that you don't need to add baking soda.

Today I noticed an area with a few holes had split apart. I've had enough of the all natural way, and added the Maracyn 2.

My pH is remaining at 7.4, 0 ammonia and nitrites. My nitrate is 10 and the KH test is still confounding me. I think I'll contact the company or see if they have a web page.

I won't change the water for another five days, the end of the Maracyn treatment. I hope this works.

So I should changing water based on what parameter? pH, KH, nitrate?

Hi

Firstly, i cant believe either that your nitrates are 0. There is always some trace of nitrate in the water. However, i'm glad to hear that you've changed your water changes from 50% every month to 30% every fortnight. I always think that smaller more regular water changes are best and i do about 15-20% change every week.

I'd stick some aquarium salt in the water to make sure that no infection sets in. That should help with the tail/finrot also.

Good luck!

Her nitrAtes aren't 0 they are 10. Her nitrItes are 0.

I would base the water change on pH, nitrIte nitrAte & ammonia-just keep checking & if all is staying stable just follow the med directions. If any of them start to change you'll have to base water changes on what's happening.


Don't forget to take out any carbon!

Hope this works!

Jenn

do keep an eye on ammonia and nitrIte as the Maracyn may mess with your biobugs.

You won't believe it. Today, I put the recommended dosage of Maracyn 2 (three tablets) in the tank. I noticed the goldfish watching the tablets sink down.

I kept going over, watching the tablets (they are not fast disolve, as the package claims). Sure enough, THEY ATE THEM!

I called the manufacturer. They said there was nothing to do now. Perhaps they would have a reaction, but what was done, was done. That was about 5 hours ago.

I am sure they ate them. I saw the tablet in the one's mouth, chewing and chewing. Then I saw the other one chewing with beige bits in his mouth. They were fed about two hours prior. I thought it was strange they were chomping, then I noticed the tablets disappearing. If you have seen a Maracyn tablet, you will know this is no little tablet.

Thinking about it, they might have eaten yesterday's tablets too. Tomorrow (if they survive), I will disolve them in water prior to placing the dose in the tank.

I should mention the fish are active and happy as ever, dancing around, making it hard to tell if their fins are regrowing. I am cautiously optomistic as I think I saw a thin white band around a fin. Cautiously optomistic as they might be OD-ing on Maracyn 2.

I didn't test water today, maybe later. I'll keep you posted.

they should be just fine. the active ingredient is erythromycin and it is commonly taken as an oral med in humans and other animals. heck, it might even work better for them as it will be soaked into their bloodstream waaaay faster and better than if it were to just remain in the water.

im hope you see some new growth very soon.

Oh good grief! They'll eat everything cept the kitchen sink.

The only thing I'd worry about would be the size of the dose. But if they're acting ok, it should be fine. What's their poop look like?

Interesting.. U of Florida Extension service,
Use of Antibiotics in Ornamental Fish Aquaculture says:


They give the oral dose as 1.5 grams per pound of food.

So how's your ammonia and nitrIte levels?

Great photos Dataguru !

Here's the latest.

There is a fine white ridge growing out of a gold fin on the one fish. (regrowth, I assume) BUT the bloody area has spread and is following the veins. I think the tail is still shrinking.

The other fish, I can't see any new growth and the fins are continuing to split and shred.

I should mention I was flooded from Ivan over the weekend. I was supposed to do a 25% water change then, but delayed it to yesterday, when the water boil advisory was lifted.

My streets were blocked and repairmen were crawling all over my house, so after the water change (30%) yesterday, I used what I had, Jungle's Fungus Eliminator. I removed the charcoal. The Penguin replacement filter pads have some carbon built into the pad. I don't think pulling out the filter pads is a good idea.

I know it was just yesterday and the bottle says wait four days, but I was out and about so I stopped at the pet supply place and bought more Maracyn 2. I also bought Maracyn and Melafix.

I just added the Melafix. I assume it is safe to use with Fungus Eliminator.

On Sunday, I will do another water change (probably 50-60%) and add the Maracyn/Maracyn 2.

Interestingly, I also bought a five in one test strip kit. The results:
NITRATE: 40
NITRITE: 0
TOTAL HARDNESS: 120 ppm
TOTAL ALKALINITY/BUFFERING CAPACITY: 0
pH: 6.4 or 6.8

My other test kit, done yesterday, indicated a Nitrate of 10, nitrite of 0 and a pH of 7.0

What do I do to get that Nitrate down and the pH stable? I am assuming it is water changes, but what about all the medicines?

This is really frustrating.

hi.

to be sure of how much baking soda that you need to add to the water, you can either add a bit and test (over and over) or you can figure out a formula for the additions. this can be done by starting with a gallon of tapwater and adding as much baking soda as needed to raise your kh/ph to an optimal level (keep track of the additions on paper). once you find your desired number, thats how much baking soda that youll have to add to every gallon of water that your replacing during waterchanges.

also, i would discontinue the melafix for now. try the maracyn with the maracyn two for a treatment (no salt). this will give you the wide spectrum that is needed because you dont know the bugs your treating. oh yeah, the melafix should be used for an "after treatment" treatment.

keep us posted.

paul

30 gallon tank right?
I'd add 1 teaspoon of baking soda per day till you get your KH up to about 7dh.
1 t should get your about a 2dh KH change. The pH change you'll get from that varies based on the starting and ending KH.

Predissolve it in tank water, the pour it in slowly making sure it disperses well.

You'll want to keep your pH changes to less than .5 per day.

Here's a calculator I built that lets you calculate how much baking soda to add and how much it will change your pH.

Another update....

I did a 60% water change yesterday (to remove the Jungle Fungus Eliminator - didn't work at all) and added 1 tsp of baking soda. I started Maracyn 2 and Maracyn yesterday also.

Nitrate - 20
Nitrite - 0
Total hardness ppm - 50
Total alkalinity/buffering capacity - somewhere between 0 and 80
pH - 7.6

Would KH be the total alkalinity/buffering capacity? The test strip ideal range is 120-180 ppm.


I hate to seem like a nit wit, but even with the calculator, I don't know how much baking soda to add. Based on a 30 gallon tank, I think I need to add 2.59 teaspoons.
Can someone check my calculations for me? Does it mean I should add another teaspoon tomorrow, then about a 1/2 a teaspoon the day after?

And what about water changes? When do I add the baking soda? To the new water or according to the test strip right after the water change?

And once again, how much and how often should I change the water? I am sorry I sound like such an inexperienced tank owner. This KH is really testing ME! I just wish the test kits were definite with the results.

I assume the guessing is because the KH is so low, it isn't reading right. In any event, the fish seem happy and hungry.

im not completely positive, but i think your suppose to add as much baking soda to each gallon of water (your adding to the tank) as it takes to get the kh to optimal levels. the best way to go about this would be to get a gallon of tapwater and test it for kh/ph. then start adding baking soda until your kh is between 120-180. keep track of each addition of baking soda and when the optimal level has been reached, add the additions up. that will be the amount of baking soda that you need to add to each and every gallon of water that you put in the tank. this will maintain your kh at the 120-180 level and keep your ph stable.

note:

adding baking soda will also raise your ph. its a good idea to bring this level up slowly so as to not stress your goldies with too fast a ph swing. unless you find that your total addition to each gallon doesnt swing your ph much (.5 or less). then you dont need to worry as much.

also, youll need to change the water as per your nitrAtes. if they start ot get towards 40ppm, do a 50% waterchange and this will brng your nitrates down to 20ppm.

i hope this helps!

UPDATE:

Today is the fifth and final day of Maracyn and Maracyn 2. The tank water is absolutely cloudy, so bad I can hardly see the fish. Water parameters are fine. I can't wait for tomorrow to change the water and add the charcoal back in. Now, the medicine directions say to change 25% water. I would like to change 50-60% and keep changing each day until the water is back to crystal. Any opinions on this?

Almost forgot, the fish that didn't respond to Maracyn 2 the first time around, it's tail has healed back together. There was a shred in the tail almost an inch long. Today, all mended together. Guess the stuff is working. Almost did a cartwheel in the kitchen.

Now that I know how to add baking soda, the kh should be 120-180. Nitrates - 20, Ammonia and Nitrite - 0. Do I worry about the pH level if the KH is in the ideal range? My pH has been reading high, 7.6.

What about adding Melafix for the next week or so? Just to make sure I have this rot beaten.

I should mention the "bloody" areas on both of their tails is still the same. Should I worry about that too?

great! the meds got rid of the bacteria and this is allowing them to heal up nicely!

the blood spots can linger for quite some time. give them a few weeks and you should notice them diminishing (unless they just disappear).

you can change as much of the water as youd like. however, because the cloudiness might be partly a beneficial bacterial bloom, 25-50% a day for a few days should be more like it.

the additions of baking soda not only cause a rise in kh, they cause a rise in ph as well. not to worry if it stays stable (it should). if your tapwater comes out at 7.2 and remains that way (untreated) after letting it sit for 24 hours or shaking it like all heck in a closed jar for a few minutes, the difference would only be about .4 . this isnt enough to be worried about because it would take a 100% waterchange to get the ph to rise too fast. and even then, a .5 fluctuation still isnt enough to worry about.

melafix and very clean water (low nitrates) for the next couple of weeks would be an excellent idea. not to mention the medi-gold that you can feed them during that time (didnt you say you had some??). just dont stop the medi-gold until theyve been on it for at least 2 weeks.

good luck to you and your babies. they are so very lucky to have found a home in your tank/s! keep up the good fishkeeping and youlll be rewarded with happy healthy goldies for many, many years to come!

paul

I am just sick about my tank. Since my last post, I have been changing and changing the water (60%) to get it back to crystal. Literally, changing it four times this past week. I added enough baking soda to get the KH to 7. My pH is at 8.2 and nitrates are barely detectable. Ammonia and nitrites are 0. These parameters have been stable all week. The fish look like they are floating in air the water is so clear.

The water was so clouded with the Maracyn 2 and Maracyn, I couldn't make out the bubbles in the back of the tank. There was a brown slime on the back wall and the water was a slight tannish color. Yuck!

After the repeated water changes, I was able to see the fish better - the "healed" tail wasn't really totally healed as I previously posted. It still had a small split. Plus I have not noticed any new growth on this one. The other fish has definite new growth.

This a.m. while feeding, the one with the split tail splashed really hard. Then I saw two section of tail floating. About 1/2 wide and 2 inches long! Two that size! I am just sick about this. It was from the middle of the back fin, not the area that was previously split. What does this mean? Are my fish still sick? I can't imagine this is normal.

I decided to leave the tank alone after all the meds. I haven't added Melafix or given antibiotic food. I thought impeccable water quality would finish up the healing process. Please help me.

Now we know why your other KH test was changing colors as soon as you added reagent. Your KH was 0. Have you tried it since you've gotten KH up? it'll give you more accurate readings than the strips. Next water change, you might try adding enough BS to get KH up to 6dh instead of 7dh and see if that brings pH down a little bit.

So how does the tail look where the fin came off?

If it looks angry, instead of treating the tank with antibiotics you could take a soft brush and peroxide to the tail, then dry it and coat it with triple antibiotic cream.

hmmm. i dealt with this before. not to worry, it isnt exactly life threatening or anything. with a little attention, you can cure it. my comet had chunks of his tail come off like that when he had a particularly nasty tail-rot. in the end it was indeed pristine water (and melafix?) that allowed it to heal. it just needs to be brought under control first.

adding a bit to datagurus suggestion of the swabs, i would do the first few swabs with povidone iodine. this will knock down any fungus (and bacteria) that might very well be at the sites of injury as much as bacteria is. once you switch to just the peroxide swabs, youll be able to perform them everyday for up to a week. if, by then, you dont visibly see the rot ceasing, another round of antibiotics might be in order.

it sounds like your really close to having your tank and goldies probs under control. hang in there............

Yes, I have been using the "drop" type of test and comparing results with the strips. I noticed as I added baking soda, the drop test was reacting more normally. Meaning it wasn't turning yellow at the first drop. Using the drop test, I added 7 drops of reagent to turn from blue to yellow.

I thought the KH was supposed to be 7. At 6, the pH is around 7.6-7.8.

The tail looks great. Like somebody used a pair of scissors to cut out the chunks of tail. Neat and not the least bit red.

Should I use Melafix as a precaution? I haven't had much success with it, but I have a big bottle of it.

I was so thrilled with the crystal water yesterday, now this fin thing today. So sad.

Forgive me for sounding stupid... How do I do these swabs? My fish is a little larger than my extended hand. Do I grab the fish, tail down my wrist and paint medicine on the tail? I imagine I would do more harm to the body of the fish trying to hold it.

for swabs, its best to have two sets of hands in there. transfer the fish out of the tank into a temorary bin just big enough for the fish to turn around in.

have a clean rag ready thats just big enough to cover the body of the fish. cotton t-shirt scraps work great. just rinse and wring it out really well to remove any and all detergent residue left behind from the washer. dip the rag into the temporary bin and get it wet. now, youll need to slowly wrp the fish up in the rag like a taco. you dont necessarily have to roll it up in ti, you just want the extra grip that the rag will afford you. when wrapping the rag around the fish and beggining to grasp, pay special attention tha its fins arent folded in any precarious positions. for this reason, its a good idea to try and shoo the fish into the rag and wrapping it around it in one swift movement so the fins slide back as he enters the rag (that made sense, right? )

now, you can have another rag ready thats sitting on the counter next to the bin. this rag will act as your pallete for the swab. have the person thats holding your fish (or you) turn the fish 45 degrees on its sidewhile still holding softly but surely. then the other person can generously swab the affected area with whatever solution you are using. at this point you can quickly apply triple antibiotic ointment to the sites. after this, you simply put the fish back into the temporary bin for a few minutes before transerring back to the main tank.

altogether, once the fish is in your grip and out of the water, the swabbing would only take 5-15 seconds. this is not enough time to cause any pain or damage to the fish, its just annoying.

hope this helps!

I'm back. I think my goldies have fin rot again and I think I might know the cause, but I would like your opinions so the rot doesn't get out of control.

Since my last post, I have been faithfully doing 60% weekly water changes and cutting back on their amount of food. This has produced much smaller poops and much cleaner water, although I am amazed at all the muck after only one week.

Anyway, remember my KH being none existent? I have been adding baking soda and the KH has been around 7-8. The only problem is my pH has been sky high. I assume that because it wasn't really a color on the high pH color chart. It was absolutely over 7.6 on the regular pH test.

From what I read, as long as the pH was stable, the fish would tolerate it. Well, since October, the fins have been growing on both fish. Things were great.

About 10 days ago, it looked like the fins were "melting" again and getting holes! I should point out my water quality was fabulous since then. No ammonia or nitrite, nitrate 5-10, kH 6-8... The only thing wacky was the really high pH.

My tap water is a perfect 7.0. I was adding 1/4 teaspoon baking soda to each 2.5 gallon bucket replacement water, plus one extra 1/4 teaspoon to achieve KH of 7.

This later water change (15-16 gallons) I only added 1/2 teaspoon (instead of 1 3/4 teaspoons) and the ph finally matched the color chart to read 7.8. The KH is 4.

I read on a few sites high pH can also cause fin rot. I'm thinking that is what is happening.

I bought Melafix, but I plan on keeping the pH around 7.4, (1/4 teaspoon baking soda) meaning the KH is probably going to plummet to 2.

I haven't had an ammonia problem since I cycled the tank 4 years ago. Is a low KH going to create problems in my tank?

Am I on the right track? I want to get this fin rot healed as soon as possible. I am not interested in using antibiotics, but would like great water quality to heal them.

What do you think?

Hi again!

I think you are on the right track as far as pH being the root of your problem. Since it seems that your ph is a perfect 7 out of the tap (even after it sits out?), you might just try adding crushed coral or oyster shells (in a vacuum bag) to your filter. This will raise your kH without raising your pH. I just got through helping someone who seems to have the same tapwater chemistry as you and we have got the problem worked out with just crushed coral.

One thing about the crushed coral though; When you got to do a large waterchange, it takes a few days for the kH to rise to optimal levels again. If your tapwater can't keep a stable pH for the time that it takes for the kH to rise, pH swings might ensue. I would draw some tapwater into a jug with a lid and shake the living heck out of it for several minutes and re-test. If the ph changes in that short amount of time, You might need to pre-treat your waterchange water a few days in advance with crushed oyster shells to make sure that the kH is there before changing the water.

Since I have never had to deal with poor kH or pH in tapwater, I'm not really that keen on all the mechanics involved. Hopefully someone else will read this and either be able to back me up or correct me.

P.S. I'm going to move this over to the water chemistry forum so that you may recieve a lot more veiws from other experts in this area.

Good luck and keep us posted!

Baking soda won't take pH above 8.3

What's the KH in your tap water?

Any idea how much KH drops in your tank between partial water changes?

Funny as it may sound, I am thrilled high pH can cause fin rot. The thought of treating the whole tank with a host of antibiotics was not doing anything for me...

I tested my tap water's KH. With one drop of reagent, it turns yellow. Meaning it is 0.

I tested my tank's KH. My water change was four days ago and the KH has remained stable at 4.

I did the shake-water-in-a-jug test a while ago and the tap water pH was the same as before the shaking.

Is crushed coral/oyster shell available at a pet supply store? Does it come in little bags, ready to drop in the filter (like a tea bag?).

Once I find the coral/oyster shell bags, do I eliminate the baking soda additions?

Lots of questions. Thanks for your patience and concern.

I just went on PetsMart's web site and they show "Aquarium Gravel Substrate from CaribSea" and "Crushed Coral Gravel for Marine" - 15lbs for $12.99.

It looks like irregular shaped gravel.

Is this the product I am looking for?

How much do I add? I put it in an old nylon pantihose?

Could I just drop it in the tank rather than the filter?

It's no problem.

I got my oyster shell at a feed store... a 50 pound bag for $6. In my tropical tanks, I mixed it in with the gravel since I'm running undergravel filters in it. It's a little bit of a pain when I vacuum cuz the smaller pieces get sucked into the gravel vacuum. It's in the two media baskets in my penguin 330 on my goldie tank cuz I was worried about sharp edges. If it's there to get hurt on, my goldies will get hurt on it. *chuckle*

Crushed Coral Gravel for Marine would work. Sounds like it's large enough to get good water flow thru it and small enough to have enough surface area. Be sure to rinse it well.

yep. panty hose in a high flow area would work.
I'd check and see how sharp it is, plus I'm not sure how well it dissolves if water isn't flowing through it.

That's good that KH is holding at 4dh. With your tap water KH, I'd think whether you need to buffer with baking soda would depend on the size of the partial water change. You probably wouldn't need to buffer with baking soda for smaller changes. I think I would buffer up to 4 for larger ones.

Okay, let's see if I have it right....

I have a Penguin 330 with two media baskets in the filter. Currently, both have carbon. Should I replace one with crushed coral?

Since all water changes I do are 50-60%, I should add baking soda to achieve a KH of 4dh.

Regarding the use of Melafix, is it absolutely necessary to remove the carbon?

I'll get this tank straightened out one of these days. Just amazing my goldies are still swimming along...

You can. or you can use the stocking.

Yea. I'd shoot for a pH of around 7.4-7.5 since that's near where the crushed coral will keep pH.

I'd assume fresh carbon would remove melafix.

Goldies are tough beasties. Mine lived thru us being totally clueless. A long time ago I had two commons I got at a bait shop for a quarter. They lived in a 20 gallon with an undergravel flter for like 7 years.

I ended up buying "Natural Coral Sand" by Tideline, Inglewood, CA - "Pure marine substrate, 100% calcium carbonate, multiple grades, increase pH buffering" 10lbs.

The Penguin 330 filter has two media baskets in the filter. I removed the charcoal (for the Melafix to work) and filled one with the 'natural coral sand'. This coral sand in similiar to regular tank gravel, but smaller. More like cat litter.

I did a 50-60% weekly water change and added my usual water conditioner, Melafix and 1/2 teaspoon of baking soda.

My KH is now 3 (dropped from last change) and my pH is 7.8.

1. On the next water change, (in one week) should I omit the baking soda?

2. Should I test the KH and pH daily?

3. My pH should be 7.4-7.5, but what is ideal KH?

4. In the future, should I keep one media basket filled with charcoal and the other with coral?

5. Will the coral melt/dissolve or will it need replacing monthly like the charcoal?

Thanks for your time!