Hi my goldfish started sitting on the gravel at the bottom of the tank Sunday evening, he perks up if his companion (in perfect health) comes along or if we approach the tank. When he does swim the rear of his body doesn't move with such ease as the front end (but this isn't exaggerated). He is eating normally and his dorsal fin is erect. There are no obvious changes in his skin/scales. They had a 1/3 water change on Sunday. I have added Myxazin to the water 3 times now with 12 hour untervals.
Any suggestions gratefully received.

NO2 0.1
NO3 5
Ammonia ~0.2
pH 7.5
Food as usual Tetrafin Flake Food
No plants or ornaments in the tank
Gravel filter system
His companion is ~6cm head to tail, they have been living in the tank for 4months
Sick fish ~8cm head to tail
Volume of water in tank ~29.5 litres

HI miffy sorry to hear one of your fish isn't feeling well.

I calculated liters to gallons and got roughly 7.5 gallons. Along with the information you provided I would say he isn't doing well because of poor water quality.
It looks like your tank is still cycling. Are you familiar with this? If not we can explain it.
He should do better if you do another water change and try to bring down the ammonia. Ammonia is very bad for fish as well as nitrites.
Continue to do around 20-30 water changes every day or 2 to help get those #s down.

I'm not as familar with under gravel filters as I am hang on the back ones. But if the filter you have has charcoal in it, the charcoal is pulling the medicine out of the water before the fish get it.

Post back soon.

Thanks very much for this I will keep changing the water. If you could explain water cycling that would be very helpful. 20 to 30 times a day sounds a lot, how much should I be changing at a time? Normally I leave the water for a few hours to aclimatise in temperature.

Presumably if I keep changing the water I will have to top up the Myxazin. I don't believe the filter system does contain charcoal.

Thanks again.

I think she meant for you to change 20-30% of the water once or twice a day.

Megan

D'oh! Thank you I had just realised that and was going to try and edit my reply!

Hi no obvious signs of improvement, am keeping up with the Myzaxin and water changes. He now seems to have a funny twitch when he has the energy to swim around, his head jerks to one side I think his fins are suffering from the lack of use and are looking a bit white and possibly there are a couple of splits, hard to tell, would it be a good idea to use some teatree oil based medicine for this?

I have the same problem. 15 gal. Tank is a week old (sorry I can't afford the test kits). Medium size gravel, UGF attached to an overhead spray system, lots of plants. Temp 80-82 F.

Bought two 1-inch redcap oranda yesterday. The slightly bigger one is doing okay but the slimmer, more beautiful one also behaves the same way as miffy's. Initially gave them sinking pellets (pre-soaked of course). But right now I'm fasting them until you guys tell me otherwise. I bought flakes today if that'll help.

Thanks in advance.

(*sigh* This is not a good start. ~_~)

Oh no! Sorry I can't give you any advice, but I'll keep you posted on whether the changing water and medicine helps.

Sorry to hear you are having problems as well.

It might be a good idea for you to post your own thread, that way the members won't get confused as to what is going on.
I'm sure you'll get a better response that way.
If you take your water to a local fish store they can test it for you for free.
post back soon.

Sorry Miffy I did mean 20-30%.

Have you tested the water lately? This may help us a little better.
When you say he is "twitching" could you mean flashing? Sometimes when a fish is stress from ammonia or nitrites they can dart around while swimming.
Post back soon.

Hi Laurie,

I've just retested the water. To be honest I find it very hard to measure the ammonia because on the colour comparison "0" is clear and "0.6" is very pale yellow. I've looked at it in lots of lights and compared it to normal water, I think it is slightly yellow. At most I would say it is 0.1.

NO2 is less than 0.1, NO3 is 5 and pH 7.5.

The twitching is hard to explain, it is only when he swims, which is very little at the moment. The other fish in the tank is behaving normally (apart from trying to encourage his friend to come swimming). This morning when I fed them, the sick one whizzed to the top and ate lots of flakes before sinking to the bottom and spitting them out again.

Hmm, that doesn't sound like a water quality problem to me. The ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and pH readings are all fine.

I would be most inclined to suspect a parasitical problem, possibly Chilodonella or Trichodina. These are both common parasites which attack a fish's skin and respiratory system. Fish suffering from these parasites isolate themselves, clamp their fins (hold their fins close to their bodies), are lethargic, twitch and/or scratch themselves on the ornaments or substrate. The remedy for these is a .3% concentration of salt in the tank.

To salt a tank to .3%, you need three level tablespoons of salt (any salt is fine unless it contains anti-caking agents - check the ingredients carefully first) per 5 US gallons, in increments of 1 tablespoon per 5 every 12 hours. This slow increase of salt avoids stressing your fish or the bacteria in the filter. Dissolve the salt completely first in some old tank water before pouring it in, well away from the fish or filter. For your tank, I would add 1 tablespoon of salt, wait 12 hours, add another tablespoon, wait 12 hours and then add a final tablespoon. I know you have 7.5 gallons, but the displacement caused by the gravel, filter etc. probably gives you a volume of about 5 gallons so a total of 3 tablespoons would be about right.

Leave the salt at this level for at least 5 days. You should see an improvement in your fish within that time. If you do not, then we need to re-examine and see what else could be the problem.

As a side note, I personally would not bother with the Myxazin. I have tried this several times before and it does absolutely nothing. Melafix (a tea-tree oil med) would be better, but don't use it at the same time as the salt - it will stress the fish.

Hope this helps - let us know how you get on with the salt. Post again if you are not sure about anything.

We definitely have the same problem. Even the okay one is starting to scratch.

Thanks, Emma. I'm glad I stopped here before the shop opens.

And thanks Miffy for posting the topic. Good luck to both of us.

Hi, from my experience, whenever my fish is sitting on the bottom of the tank unusually (i.e. not sleeping time, and water parameters seem ok), it's usually parasites, and when they sit at the bottom it usually makes it worse, because they get further attacked by the parasites at the gravel What I've been doing now (which does helps temporarily) is to give salt baths, which seem to relieve them for a day or two (salt concentration kills off existing parasites on the fish, lowering their numbers helps heaps) - I use 6 spoonfuls per gallon at the moment for a ~3% concentration for no more than 5 mins (recommended by toothless in the treatment section, or 1.5% up to 10mins), but do read up on kokos about specific salt bath treatments you can do okie?

In the meantime (do check this out very quick, because every day matters before your fish succumbs to the parasites ), try to find out what parasites are affecting your fish. If you can't see anything obvious on the fish, it's probably flukes (I'm using Praziquantel for my treatments, with salt baths in between when my goldies seem to be getting affected more than usual). Also remove hollow ornaments if you have, because I hear it makes things worse if fishies hide there and get feasted on by hiding parasites.

Hope this helps, and keep us posted okie?

Nice catch Emma, After reading the last water results my guess would be that something else is going on. And parasites are still my low point, but I'm learning.
Good luck Miffy and keep us posted.

Urk. I forgot to ask. If you do the salt thing in the tank, should you still do water changes? How would you calculate for that?

Thanks Emma, I will begin salt treatment at once, as per last time you rescued me!!! Very worried as this morning he is obviously having problems staying at the bottom of the tank. His rear tail is trying to float up and he is trying to keep himself down. He is not noticeably clamping his fins.

Sorry to hear about your poor little fish. Let us know how you get on with al the great advice you have received.

Thank you for your concern Woodstock. Just to let everyone know, this afternoon after starting the salt treatment this morning, my fishie has been more perky. He has started swimming round more, so I hope this means he's on the mend. He does seem to be having some balance problems though.

Unfortuately I have to go away for a couple of nights so after a second salt treatment tonight, he's on his own.

With regards to the parasite theorey, how do you think it could have got in the water, as we have not added anything new to the tank, as I am pretty paranoid about introducing stuff that might have disease.

Glad to hear he's a little more perky.

The balance thing might be a touch of swimbladder disease, which can be treated by fasting the fish for a couple of days , then feeding a few peas, lightly boiled, de-skinned and mushed. This usually works well.

As for the parasites, they are usually present at low levels in all tanks and ponds. Normally they aren't a problem because healthy fish can resist them, but if a fish gets stressed or sick with something its resistance drops and the nasty critters gain a hold and multiply. Possibly you had a water quality problem for a few days which lowered your fish's resistance and made it more vulnerable to disease.




Kamitoki, you still do your water changes as normal (in fact you need to test the water more regularly because salt can sometimes interefere with the cycle). Just replace whatever salt you removed in the old water, e.g. if you remove 5 gallons, put 3 level tablespoons of salt in the new 5 gallons going back in the tank. It is much easier with a salinity kit though; salt levels can be hard to manage after a while. I have a liquid reagent kit which is very good.

Thanks again, Emma. They're slightly improving. First one isnt as catatonic. Guess I'd have to wait a few more days. (It's the fretting that kills one. This is enough to put me off motherhood for life.) Sides still red though from scratching.

By the by, would it be easy to look for ich if since bodies are white?

Thanks again, Emma. They're slightly improving. First one isnt as catatonic. Guess I'd have to wait a few more days. (It's the fretting that kills one. This is enough to put me off motherhood for life.) Both have sides still red though from scratching.

By the by, would it be easy to look for ich if since bodies are white?

Yeah, ich is fairly easy to spot even on a white fish - look for raised bumps about the size of a pinhead and a thickened slime coat.

Thanks for the top advice. Unfortunately we have come home tonight to find him not at all well. He is just sitting in one place and jerking almost constantly, he is constantly opening and closing his mouth, but doesn't seem to be breathing faster than normal. The twitching has become like an involuntatry spasm, in humans I would associate it with neural problems. He has no skin pigment i.e. he is silvery (usually) but it almost seems like he is pinky tonight, like his scales are becoming translucent. Since writing this he has perked up a bit and has moved, but am still very worried.

I raided the store for:

1. water conditioner (buffers water, removes metals, deactivates chloramine etc. etc.)
2. vitamins (liquid)
3. anti-parasite (liquid)

They're both doing better now. Instead of salting the entire tank, I take them out once a day to give them a salt bath. They itch from time to time but at least the other guy goes to the surface for long times now.

Glad your fishies are improving kamitoki.

I think my fishy must have been sleepy when we came home last night because he was certainly a bit brighter as the evening went on and the same again this morning. I put in the final salt addition last night and tested the water which all seems fine. I'd say he is stable but certainly not well.

Yeah. Same here. I think he just needed to rest a bit. It's like the way we are when we just got sick. You know, okay but still a little bit tired.

I think my fishy is improving but I still feel he has a long way to go. The twitching seems reduced and he is staying in the water at mid level rather than the bottom. He is moving around more but spends a lot of time floating in one place. He seems to be very much in a world of his own and does not notice movement outside the tank like before. My main concern now is geting food into him. I don't think he has eaten properly for a week. He won't come and eat food when I shake flakes on. I was wondering about using the slow release pellets for weekends away, do you think this would be a good idea?

miffy, since you mentioned twiching, have you thought about treating for flukes? (I know every word I say in this forum lately has been flukes, but it's something I'm currently battling). I was wondering because spasm like twitching/quivering/shaking bodies (from head to gills from my experience) is associated with flukes attacking the fish's gills

In my case, Praziquantel helped heaps. Since it's a very harmless chemical (i.e. do not affect plants and hard to overdose), I recommend doing this if you see no improvements in your fishie...the earlier the better (PS: read toothless's Treatment section about Flukes).

Good luck!

Most peeps would tell you not to bother feeding, it would only cause more problems, especially since you won't be there to water-change. I would suggest adding vitamins though. It's a good thing the remedy I got covers flukes, parasites and lice, so I wouldnt have to worry which is right.

My sicker one is doing the same as yours, staying at mid-level and zoned out sometimes, but at least he eats and interacts with the other one from time to time.

Thanks for the suggestion about flukes Kat, Emma had suggested some kind of parasite being the cause of the twitching. He is in a 0.3% salt solution at the moment, the twitching is much improved but he's still not behaving normally. Thanks for referring me to toothless's section. I have to get my head around it all and check that the salt solution is ok to use with Pranziquantel.

Hi,

I have to admit I'm a bit confused about all the advice and help I've been offered and have read up on. This is the situation as it stands now:

The fish have now been in the 0.3% salt solution for over 5 days. Although the sick fish has improved he is still not well.
Not eating, or coming to the surface of the water.
Less aware of what is around him than normal.
Still some twitching, more like shivering now.
Any poo during the past 10 days has been thin and white, I've since learnt ths can be due to an internal bacterial infection.
Other fish in the tank is behaving perfectly normally.
Water levels same as before.

Questions
Should I now assume it is flukes and start treating with Pranziquantel? (if so, is this a trade name because I've rung up my local pet shop and they don't stock it, there are other places I'm very willing to try, but I was wondering if it's an ingredient....) The reason I'm holding back is because emmahj (whose opinion I highly respect ) intially said it could be something like, possibly Chilodonella or Trichodina, are these a type of fluke? In which case would it be the same treatment? I really don't want to start another course of treatment if I'm barking up the wrong tree.
If I do use Pranziquantel will it be safe with the 0.3% salt solution?
Feeding: I've read that the flukes can be starved, as only one fish is eating at the moment, should I lay off food for a while? Would it be better to feed peas?

I REALLY apperciate all the advice I've had so far and would really like some more guidance.

I haven't been able to obtain Pranziquantel, so I have started a course of Waterlife's Sterazin. I am slowly reducing the salt level by replacing 4 litres a day. Will keep you posted.

Nothing particularly new to report except my fish hasn't been interested in food for 3 weeks now, and does not appear to eat anything.

Today is the last day of the fluke treatment, although my fish is no longer twitching, he is very subdued and totally uninterested in food. Am really worried and would really appreciate any advice.