Hello - we have 4 common goldfish in a 70 gallon tank. They were actually cheap feeder goldfish that we bought for my daughter and they've grown up with her and we are all strongly attatched. We've had them for 5 years now - they have always been fed the same things, have plenty of oxygen, food, and filtration. They grew from tiny little specks to large, healthy specimens (4-6 inches). They have been in their current tank for 2 years with no introduction of other fish, snails, etc. We clean the gravel bed often and change 1/3 of the water each week, as we have for all 5 years.

Then last week two fish fell ill about the same time. The first one to die was the apparently less sick fish. First his scales fell off rapidly, he refused to eat, he began to float laying slightly over on his side. We thought about swim bladder problems but that did not explain the scales falling off. He did not show red ulcer spots nor any signs of ich (and we've seen ich in other fish before). Fin rot was not apparent although it looked like his tail split, as if brittle, but it did not rot or have any spots or frayed edges?? We aggressively treated for ich anyways but he died regardless. We had a fish funeral and hoped that the other one would not follow suit.

The second fish seemed sicker than the first but has not died yet. We were surprised that the other passed away first. This one has an two additional problems - his eyes look cloudy, discolored a little but not swollen. His mouth is the most disturbing thing - it looks like tissue is falling off or has been severely infected and swollen. I've seen wild catfish with this appearance, as if they had been hooked and released and developed an infection and had flaps of skin hanging. This, of course is not a concern for our goldfish but his mouth looks similar.

He is not eating and his scales have fallen off, too, alot of scales. Again, I see no signs of ich or any other parasite visible to my eyes. I have looked up pictures of the many fish parasites, I've seen nothing that matches. Everyone correlates missing scales with fighting or ich - there is no fighting among these fish. As I said, we treated for ich once but we did it again anyways. This fish also started bumping into the glass, not so much a rubbing action (which would have been a helpful clueA) but a fast slamming into the glass headfirst every once in a while. His tail looks fine, no white spots, no spliting, no rotting, no fraying. Lots of scales have come off, but there are no red marks on this fish, either. Other than the missing scales the flesh of his body seems okay - no ulcers, no discolored areas.

The two other fish are fine - no scales falling off yet, their eyes seem okay, they eat heartily. We have not tested the water, we have never tested the water and the fish have always been fine. We are doing the same things we have always done, the source of water has not changed, the food is the same, no new fish have been added, not even a snail or new gravel, etc, etc.

There are no resources here in our area for fish-lovers - the nearest aquarium shop is an hour away and it is second-rate at best with young kids working the sales counter and no experienced help to speak of. Traditional methods of diagnosis are useless, there is no one in the surrounding area to help us if we did have a skin scraping or other sample to be analyzed. I hesitate to handle the fish or stress them any further. We have no way of sedating them anyways.

So I am asking any of you to please help us. I am afraid that it is only a matter of time before the two healthy fish fall ill and I fear that it may be too late for the sick fish. Could it be old age, cancer, some bacteria we've never dealt with? Over a week has passed and the other fish seem to be okay still. I just don't know. I should also mention that when considering a treatment please realize that we do not have extensive resources in that area, it needs to be a common product readily available in most areas or we will not have access to it.

Any help greatly appreciated!!!

it sounds like you have a bacteria out brake in your tank. do water a water change at 40% and then go get a med that will treat bacterial desies. polygaurd is a good one . intill you get the med adding salt to the water will help as well. add about one tsp of non iodized salt per gallon. pickling salt will do. do you have any test kits? for ammonia and nitrates ect? if not go get you tank water checked at the pet stor they should do it for free. and get acual # not just if the readings are high or not.

Hi! I was going to ask you a couple more questions-
Do you happen to know the ater prameters of the tank?
How is it decorated? Does ithave any hollow ornaments- for example, they make some beautiful plastic "wooden" looking ones that fill with water to weight them down.
Can you get a picture of the sick fish for us to look at?

For the moment, i would also salt the tank. Aquarium salt, pickling salt, anything non-iodized with no caking agents will work. The proportions were given in the above post by kissez.

If this were me, I would DEFINETLY get test kits. I know that you say you haven't tested the water, and have been doing everything the same for a long time, but this doesn't mean that everything has STAYED the same for a long time. Your water source hasn't changed, but their levels may have. They may have more "whatever" in the water now, or something. You never know!
This definelty isn't old age. Goldies can live to be 20+ under the right conditions, so this isn't the case.
I definetly think you need to have the water tested. Either buy the kits yourself, or, if you prefer, have the pet store test, but like kissez said, get the actual #'s from them, don't accept "It's fine", or whatever. If you're going to buy kits, the most important ones are nitrIte, nitrAte, ammonia, and Ph.
If you do add some salt, use PURE salt. No anti-caking agents at all. Good luck, and let us know what the water params are, then we'll go from there.

hi welcome to Koko's.

i'm going to repost what i know so far.. then go from there.

70gal
4 goldies (now 3)
1/3 water change weekly - clean gravel bed often
no new additions
fish 1 passed away - symptoms : split fin, scales falling off in large amounts
fish 2 sick - symptoms : scales falling off, listing sideways, not eating, cloudy eye and mouth infection/trauma

we ask about the water parameters because this lets us know immediately if the water might be playing a part in the sickness.
without knowing the levels it is somewhat harder to offer treatment, because if the water is off medications dont work as efficiently.

the question about any hollow ornaments is a good one. they allow the water to stagnate and anaerobic bacteria can grow.
a thick layer of gravel can do the same, allowing pockets to form, which can then get stirred into the water durring a gravel clean.
power outages which stop the airflow/circulation can also cause the aerobic bacteria to die off, this can throw off the balance in a tank.

so,
did you lose power shortly before this episode? or
did you notice these symptoms after a gravel clean?
do you clean the gravel with a gravel vac?
how often do you clean/change your filter material? changing too much can lead to a minicycle which can also throw off the water levels.

do you use dechlorinator at every water change?
do you use tap water? or
do you have a well - have you had heavy rain

i want to say that i've read somewhere in my travels that nitrates in high high levels can cause the scales to fall (i'll have to research this again, i'm not positive)

nitrates can be controlled (lowered) by more frequent water changes.
even though you do not know your levels (and i need to recheck that info) doing daily water changes (temp matched, dechlor water) of 20-30% will not hurt.
be gentle re-adding the water to avoid gravel adgitation, and a thorough slow vacuum getting under everything will help to remove any rotting wastes.

the mouth and the eye. i'm thinking this is something that will need medications. 70gals is a large tank to treat. if you are able to move him (scoop - not net) to a quarantine tank/container it might be easier on the amount/cost of medications.

Salt, with no caking ingredients, is used by many members (i have never salted my tank, so i will direct you to the treatment page, there is a medications page, that describes how salt can be used) medications page

maracyn I and II will treat gram neg and gram pos bacteria. (~8-10$ each package)
medicating the water and feeding him and his tankmates a medicated food for 2 weeks might also be something to consider.
if you are in need of some medicated food (medigold) i can send you some if you think it might help.
i also may have a few doses of the maracyn's here (they have an exp date, i have no need of them, and if you can use them... i'd be happy to put them in the mail)
let me know in another post.. and you can contact me through AIM or other

i have a comet that has grown (now 6in+ inc tail) with my son these past 3 years, and can only inagine the heartache you are going through right now.
i do hope we can get your sick goldie swimming again.
-Tooterfish

i did a search on Koko's for scale loss,
water parameters (nitrites, nitrates) at high (off) levels can cause a fish to 'scratch' thereby causing scale loss... (so i almost remembered right)

parasites were also listed as a cause of significant scale loss.
frequent water changes were listed as treatment, by removing the parasite from the tank.

spawning can also cause scale loss from being so physical. (i dont think this is what is happening in your tank though)

anyhoo... just thought i'd follow up on that.
-Tooter

Hi -I have the tendancy to say myself that "nothing's changed-same water change-same this -same that etc.. What we always seem to forget is that you have done the same things for the 5 years you have had your goldies,and you must have been doing a pretty decent job to have them for 5 years. But..the thing to realize is that in these 5 years,your goldies have grown continuously-meaning bigger and bigger fish-higher concentrations of ammonia/nitrites etc.--POOP which the bigger they get,the more of these things they do,so even though you haven't changed your ways,your big healthy commons(big pooper's) have..... I have a very strong suspicion it's going to lead back to your water quality.

Thank you to everyone that posted replies... we ran back home after fireworks to see if anyone had replied and we are so grateful that you all took the time to do so.

The nitrate level does sound very suspect. We have no local pet shop to test the water for us, so we will have to buy a kit (if we can find one??). We are going to treat with salt in the meantime as many of you suggested.

Also, the meds offered would be very helpful. I tried to send an email and a private message but the board said that I did not have access (although I was logged in so I am not sure why).

Maybe the person making such a generous offer can contact me and I can respond with a mailing address, also please let me know what your costs are for this. I cannot say how grateful we feel to have found this site and all of your help!!

We do have the hollow wooden 'logs' in the tank. I will remove them immediately. We have had alot of heavy rain and we do have well water. We have also had recent power outages due to all the thunderstorms. The ich treatment also said to turn off filters... maybe we made things worse by doing this.

Water changes and salt treatment begin tomorrow. I will update the this thread with any new information.

Thank you, thank you!!

good morning..

you can send your mailing address to mail@tooterfish.com
or reach me through AIM, i am tooterkin there.
and i will put them into the mail this morning (they might not ship until tomorrow.. i cant remember if today is a 'holiday'... but they will go in the box regardless)

it sounds as if you have a few things that could have been "causes" for the troubles you are having now.

hollow ornaments can be sealed (packed with sand, then sealed with aquarium sealer) or use a dremel to open a hole large enough for an air stone or current to run through.
if hollow ornaments are still used, without being altered, please remember to scrub them out at every water change in hot water (and/or bleach solution 20parts water:1part bleach) sometimes you can use a bottle brush to get inside them.

when treating for ich, it is the carbon in the filters that needs to be removed, for it will absorb the medications. but please keep the filters running when you are able.

i had asked about the well water and rain - on the chance that perhaps there was something that got soaked into the ground. we do recommend the use of dechlorinators even with wellwater use, unless you have had a test done showing the levels of contaminates - some wells are not as "pure" as we'd like them, and the dechlors help bind heavy metals.

Until the mail arrives, please do a good thorough vacuum and water change.
Keeping the water good and clean is a start.
contact me when you are able.
-Tooterfish

i have received your reply,
but the post offices are indeed closed today, so it will go into the mail tomorrow. (it'll need more than 1 stamp )

no cost, i'm doing it because i can.

i have 5 10gal dosages of the maracyn products - these can be split for 5gal treatments (it'll double the usage)
until they arrive, if you are able to find a container of at least 5 gallons that you can use as a quarantine tank, a small rubbermaid tub will work (you may already have one in your home, just make sure nothing toxic was stored in it previously)
this will be for the fish with the mouth and eye problems,
the medicated food you'll feed to all your fish for at least 14 days. (this way if there is a slight bacterial infection going on, the other 2 fish will have had some treatment)

please post if you have any other questions or concerns.. there are wonderful people here at Koko's.
-Tooter

thats so nice of you tooter

good morning parkhustohana..

just a post to let you know that i was able to put the meds into the mail this a.m.
i sent it priority mail - so you should recieve it in 2-3 days... it is in a medium white mailer envelope and is coming from Massachusetts...

was wondering if there has been any improvement with just cleaner water...
you can choose not to use the meds.. the package has an expiration date, and the medigold, if kept in a darkened container in the fridge will remain good for about another 6 months or so.

Sending good thoughts for your comet
-Tooter

Tooterfish:

Thank you! We got the meds yesterday and you are so kind!

Fortunately, the fish have improved slightly (prior to meds) - the one really sick fish is still alive and yesterday began to eat for the first time in days.

Frequent water changes must have helped - I still suspect that nitrate levels were completely off, I think that is what upset their immune system and that's why they got sick.

There haven't been any further problems. I am hoping that with meds they will all be okay now.

Thank you again, we really appreciate it - your kindness and generousity is very rare.

We'll let you know how things develop over the next two weeks!

~ Susan

i am so glad that you got them, and that the fish have already begun to improve, knowing that he is doing better has made my morning. (i have a soft spot for comets)

There is so much info here at Koko's ...

i too have kept goldfish prior to finding this site, and was surprised at how much i didnt know... and amazed at all i've learned.

read, read, read

about the cycle of the tank, about treatments, about.. lol everything

Sending good thought for his complete recovery.
-Tooter