well, just when i think that willies probs are over, hes starting to swell up! hes got the telltale stringy, clear poo trailing out of his little butt. hes not floating and still begging for food.

ive read through a few posts and all i could find as a "maybe" treatment/cure was peas (he wont touch em) and blood worms (im trying that right now). i may try to make a paste food out of tuna and peas. if none of these work, would a 1.5% salt dip or keeping him in a .3% solution of epsom salts (natural laxative) help maybe? i know that errrika has had success with salt and her betta but, that was seasalt, not epsom.

if i can get this under control, i know that im gonna have to keep a close eye on his intake in the future.

I actually had 3 young bettas that ate peas-can't say about any of the adults Paul-I fasted them a day or two and fed frozen bloodworms-They got over constipation,but I don't know if it was coincidental,or if it was the bloodworms?

Daphnia, Ive heard, also works as a natural laxative. When my betta was huge I added .3% epsom salt to the water(after some misleading advice <_< ) and fasted 2 days and fed peas.

Be careful because some bettas may be sensitive to salt.

Actually, salt does nothing, and will actually make his constipation worst by making him retain even more fluid.

To keep him from getting constipated, lay off of the dry food.

Fast him for at least 24hours, (You should be doing this once per week anyways, as it's good for them...) and then take the inside of a cooked pea and feed that to him.

Try putting a SMALL piece of the pea, about 1/8 of the inside, put it on a flat end of a tooth pick and dangle it in front of him...

If he still won't eat it, fast him for another 24hours, and try again.

Daphnia is not a natural laxative, or is the blood worm. You can feed more of the frozen blood worm, because since it's not dried food, it won't expand in the fishies tummy.

As for the daphnia, most of it is exoskelton, and indigestible... So it's good for constipation... in other words, when bettas eat the daphnia (Try a live culture, it's very simple to do) most of it past through their system.

If you feed them live food, they will have better health since not only do you know for certain what you are feeding your bettas, you know what exactly you're feeding your cultures. In addition, since I've started feeding my bettas nothing but frozen food and live food, I've noticed an improvement on their colors, fins, and over all health. More bubble nests too.

Bethany,
Having salt in the water will help because it will draw the fluid out of him. Only if he eats it will the fluid be retained in him.

Can you please show me where you got your research from, other than what "other's" have told you?

I want scientific fact....

So far, I, and others, have yet to find a liable source that says salt does a betta good.

lol. I know that when I eat a lot of salt, I get bloated cause it makes me retain water.

Until I can see the research, why use something that I don't know what is doing to my precious bettas?

Pea is a laxative in fishes. You can look that up.

bethany,

while i appreciate your candor and concern, i think that you may have overlooked some pretty well known facts about salt and its uses.

i found this on puregolds website. im sure that youll find the site "scientific" enough:

"The epsom salts, on the other hand, will not pass through the walls of the gut or gills, and is supposed to "draw out toxins". It definitely pulls water out of the surrounding tissue into the gut when used as a laxative."



now, whether my betta can handle a salt dip or two remains to be seen. ive read that a few people have experienced adverse reactions with salt and bettas. im not too keen on trying it out yet. ill be fasting him for 3 days and trying a tuna/pea paste first. if that doesnt work, ill consider the epsoms dip and another round of fasting.

paul

I second Toothless. Thats exactly what epsom salt does.

Also someone told me if peas fail and you dont want to try a salt dip, zooplankton also will work. I havent had to try it yet...... fasting and peas alway work for Flower but just something to keep in mind.

thanks nykole. your success with fasting and peas gives me a ray of hope for him. jeez, hes gotten so big that i keep thinking a little alien is gonna pop out of his belly or something! and to boot, hes still begging for food! what a little piggie! <_<

lol I thought my betta was going to pop too. He was huge and it happened suddenly. Heres a pic of how big he was:

yep! looks just like willie! i got a pretty good pic of him just now. it looks like hes got popeye in the pick but, its just a water spot on the glass. you can almost make out the "white scab" on the lower portion of his cornea over a bit of the iris. thats from my post "willies scabs". anyway, heres the pic:

well, it looked a lot better before i posted the pic on the thread. <_< ill probably just use my photobucket account for my pics. oh well. at least you can see his potbelly.

paul

sorry Bethany, some of your advice is simply not true.

Regular salt, table or aquarium, when diluted in the water, will make the fish retain fluid. Epsom salt is the opposite, it's what you soak swollen feet with, it actually draws fluid out of the fish. I remember Nykole had problems becaused she was ill advised to FEED the fish epsom salt.
Salt makes you retain fluid because it is in your body, if you were swimming in salt water for a few days you would feel pretty light and dehydrated!

Daphnia is a natural laxative, bloodworms will add to the constipation. Not sure where bloodworms as a laxative came from, I have always heard the opposite.

Fast this fish for at least 5 days. He is very big. At the end of the 5 days try him with a bit of a pea. Wait a few days. Pea again. If the swelling doesn't go down, then a bit of epsom salts in the water may be neccessary is a last effort, along with the fasting alternating with peas or daphnia.

Good luck! keep his water clean. if you do have to use salt, then watch him for erratic behaviour, darting around the tank, flicking or rolling over. If he displays these behaviours, remove him immediately.

This may seem drastic, but I actually had a female betta advance to the point where she literally exploded. Wasn't pretty.

well, his tummy is getting bigger. hes been spending a lot of time just sitting near his favorite spot. hes had a steady strem of clearish poo hanging out of his but for almost a week straight. you can see small amounts of brown stuff (betta pellets?) in the strem but, hes still expanding. ive got 24 more hours before the 3 days of fasting is up.


im not sure if the pea thing will work but im gonna give it a try. if he wont eat it, im probably going to give him a few epsoms baths for a while and see what that does. hopefully thatll get his digestive tract blockage flowing again.

also, im going to order some daphnia and medi-gold tonight.

i hope he gets better, it would be a shame to lose him to constipation after i rescued and healed him from popeye.

You don't do a salt dip for an internal problem do you.....??????

Sounds like a bacterial infection to me.

with aquarium salt, no. epsom salts on the other hand, doesnt increase osmoregulation through the skin or gills, it draws fluid away from surrounding tissues into the gut (or something similar to that). in theory, its suppose to act as an expectorant just like it does in humans. or so ive read, anyway.

if i do indeed try the epsoms dip, ill use a very low concentration for an extended period of time and keep a close eye on him throughout the process.

is there something i should be wary of?

the clear poo is a sign of infection...i'm busy busy busy right now searching for a "poo sheet" i saw once on a board ....darn it I can't find it....anyway the clear poo is #1 sign of sickness, just as in goldfish. you're going to want to get this guy on meds quickly. you're going to want to try Kanacyn - it's strong and treats different types of bacterial infections.... especially this fish just came off of having popeye!!! it's not constipation that's swelling him up if he's not eating, it's this infection, toothless......ok ....i'm off looking for the poo sheet again.... good luck....

I would try the epsom salt bath. Watch him for erratic behaviour, rolling or any other signs of distress,
loss of colour, no movement, quick breathing.

If he shows any of these signs for more than a few mintues then put him back in his own water. Salt baths can be very very stressful.

Is he exhibiting any other symptoms? redness anywhere? pineconing??

nope, none at all. his belly is pretty swelled up but, no pineconing. i know that clear poop is a sign of a bacterial infection but, what brought it on was the constipation. i feed mainly wardley betta pellets and twice a week i supplement his diet with frozen blood worms. im really inclined to believe that he got constipated from over eating (my fault). my room mate feeds him sometimes as well and i think that we wound up both feeding him two days in a row. plainly, i will have to control his diet with a marker that says hes been fed that day. im also going to fast both of my bettas at least one day a week from here on out. tomorrow, i try the pea.

i sure hope hes still hungry, if not,22 get the salt bath for a while before i turn in........

Clear poop is actually a sign of internal parasites, which also can cause bloating, followed by the dropsy symptom of pineconeing.

How many days has it been since he first started getting noticeably larger?

You could try a low concentration epsom salt bath,making sure he doesn't exhibit any additional stress signs, and then the next day feed a pea.

If the swelling doesn't start to go down, then he may in fact have something wrong with him and you can choose to use the treatment you're using now, or something very aggressive like a marycyn1-2/maracide combo, something antibacterial and antiparasitic. Of course that is dangerous because it would be very stressful, and the fish may not have either of those problems, OR you could wait it out and see if he gets better on his own or wait until he gets too sick to treat...

It's a tough call either way.

But here's hoping he's just having trouble staying 'regular'

quote:

"Clear poop is actually a sign of internal parasites, which also can cause bloating, followed by the dropsy symptom of pineconeing."



lyndzi,

im sure that you meant that clear poop could possibly mean internal parasites. in the case of internal parasites, they are very rare in closed aquarium settings. much like mine. being that no other fish in this aquarium is/has exibited any kind of any symptoms, internal parasites (or any parasites for that matter) are out of the equation. im pretty sure that ive narrowed down the reason for his bloating and its just plain constipation with the possibility of an internal (not systemic) infection that is most surely a secondary ailment. and in any treatment regemine, you fix the source and then treat the symptoms. so, thank you but, i think that ill pass on the parasite meds.

however, if the pea and/or the epsoms doesnt work tomorrow, ive got a few great antibiotics in my collection......

paul

New here at the board. Was out trying to find out what might be wrong with my daughters betta and it sounds just like your fish so I have questions if you don't mind me highjacking your thread.

This epson salt dip. What water/salt proportions are we talking to do this.

When you talk of a pea do you mean the peas that we eat (well not me but other humans)?

thank you for all the information! This is my daughters first fish (she is only 4) and she loves it to death (hugs the tank) so I guess I will try what I can to help it out.

Yes it could mean parasites, just like bloating could mean dropsy, but likely isn't. You seem to be contradicting yourself by adamently stating he does not have parasites but you are really leaning towards an internal bacterial infection.
ANY common parasites, that includes things such as velvet, can live internally. I have witnessed two of my chronically velvet-infested bettas slowly become more bloated. One died, the other who is doing well on the meds is shrinking.
These parasites can be introduced to your water at any time and by several means, and may only show in weak fish.

So unless you have a UV steriliser on your betta tank, please do not disregard parasites. I should have stated that clear feces is usually a sign of parasites rather than infection, sorry.

Whatever you choose to do, good luck


Hi Hannasangel! It would be much easier for you and everybody who is helping if you made a separate thread. That way replies won't get mixed up and your thread will probably get much more exposure! I will try to help you out in your new thread, if I can!

im sorry that you feel im contradicting myself. truthfully i dont see what you mean by that statement. i just feel that its a very risky and premature suggestion (although with obvious compassion ) to treat a symptom of constipation with a parasite medication. malachite green and formalin are very stressful compounds that could quickly push an already sick betta over the edge. and since ive got nothing pointing to parasites (other than your suggestion), im pretty darn sure that isnt the problem here. as i stated in a previous post in this thread (have you read the whole thing?) i am positive that it was caused by my feeding habits alone.

as for your description that most parasites can live internally, im sorry to inform you but, that is simply untrue. that is, unless the gills are in question. however, it is true that some parasites can pass through the gut, unharmed. ive read probably 50-100 different disease charts and not one of them even hints to the fact that velvet (oodinium pilularis or oodinium limneticum) can be an internal parasite (maybe the gills can become infected once it starts spreading). if anything, it can cause secondary symptoms (bacterial) that can spread internally. this is what i presume is/was happening to your sick bettas. there are really only a few parasites that live and propagate internally (koi tapeworms and a very few other trematodes) and they are indeed very rare in aquarium settings. if youve got information stating otherwise, please, let me know. i dont like to be mis-informed by caresheets and disease charts.

i dont want you to get the wrong impression here. i appreciate your concern. i really do! but, i started this thread to let anybody who cared know what is up with willie. im sure that a few people remember when i rescued him last year and treated him for popeye. i was soliciting any little hints or advice on the treatment of constipation.

by the way, ill post back in a little while and let everybody know how the pea and/or epsoms dip goes. wish me luck!

thanks martinez! that was a very informative page. i saw it once before but, i didnt read or save it then. i couldnt help but notice that the poop list doesnt cover clear poo with small bits of food. oh well, joann rocks anyway!

anyway, i came home today and realized that i should put willie immediately into icu (1 gallon hex tank without filter). he seems to have sprung popeye. its the same eye that was popeyed last year. anyway, ive got him on maracyn plus right now. ill be changeing 100% of his water every day with the addition of fresh meds. thats the regemine i used last time so, it should help this time as well. the bloating hasnt gone down any but, the growth of the swelling has subsided. hes still pretty chipper for a guy that has a swollen eye and stomache. ive noticed more frequent trips to the surface since the addition of the meds so i added an airstone set on low.

anyway, hes definitely contracted a bacterial infection so, hes gonna be in icu for at least a week from now, probably a bit longer even.

Poor little guy....keep u s posted Paul.

Okay, I found where I became confused,

where some other people had suggested you treat for a bacterial problem, I was under the impression that you also had jumped to that conclusion. I thought you were planning on treating him with aggressive bacterial meds, although at that time there really wasn't any evidence for or against an infection. Therefore, I thought that by disregarding the possibility of parasites, and starting a course of harsh antibac meds, you were contradicting yourself.
Reading back again I discovered until his popeye returned you weren't planning to use any bacterial medication... sorry

Is there an embarrassed smiley? :crp Close enough!

As for common parasites like velvet not living internally, can I see your diagnosis sheets? When I read 'internal parasites' I knew there was the usual 'worms' & related, but I also thought that velvet could live internally. I did stumble across a site that said parasites can cause kidney failure, which causes the bloating and pineconeing. In the case of my two bettas, my very young female dropsied and died, and my big plakat male swelled up, and soon into treatment with Aquarisol he returned to normal size but is still fighting the parasite. I honestly would like to see your care sheet though, the only one I have bookmarked is BettaTalk.


Again, sorry I acted like a jerk, I didn't take the time to read and react properly
And I hope your betta is feeling better.

When I "suggested" this, my evidence was the clear poo.....

lyndzi,

quite the contrary. you did not act like a jerk at all. you were just concerned and trying to intervene on a possible misdiagnosis situation. thats all, no harm no foul.

as far as the caresheets go, ill have to compile them all into one notepad file and post or pm them to you. but, i think that the caresheet/s that you read about the kidney failure, was either referring to internal "worms" or systemic bacterial infections such as columnaris. im not positive on that though. ill get back to you with that compiled list of disease/treatment charts.

by the way, im glad you posted back. i wasnt sure if there were any hard feelings or anything

paul

A link to a good one would be great! Obviously I need a refresher course.

No hard feelings at all, rereading my post I realised how unattentive and harsh I was being. Sometimes I need to remind myself that Koko's is different from that other tropical fish forum, and foolishness like that isn't overlooked..

i found a few that ive got on file, if you need more, let me know.


heres a really good one:

http://www.aquarium.net/0597/0597_4.shtml


and then some others:

http://puregold.aquaria.net/pg/disease/sym...me.htm#Oodinium

http://aquaworld.netfirms.com/Disease/oodinium.htm

http://www.akca.org/library/diease4.htm

i hope they help!

yeah, every time i look at magnified pics of flukes and whatnot, it makes my skin crawl!

its not looking good for willie.

hes developed dropsy! and just when the swelling started to go down in his eye (last night). all day today, i watched his scales flare more and more. hes still getting the maracyn+ and ive added a small amount of epsom salt. im keeping his container at around 80-82 degrees.

willie past away last night. *sighs*

when i woke up this morn i found him still and lifeless. before burying him i performed an amatuer autopsy and found a very large tumor-like growth. it was a light pinkish hue with very tiny whitish spots speckled here and there. it was sitting there right next to the end of his digestive tract (see diagram). what it was growing on, i couldnt tell you. but, im assuming that it was his liver or his actual intistine. ive read that kidney failure can lead to dropsy but, this tumor wasnt anywhaere near his kidney/s. either way, it was probably not allowing his innards to function anywhere near normal.

so, maybe it wasnt actually constipation after all. any thoughts or comments?

heres the diagram i found. scroll down for the internal diagram:

http://www.webvortal.com/bubblenest/anatomy.html


thanks to every body who tried to help. he will be sorely missed.

paul

Oh Paul I'm so sorry to hear about Poor Willie!!! If it was a tumor,then it probably was best to take him quick ,ya know? Well,at least you know you did everything possible for him,and maybe he at least knew that....That's the only thing that doesn't get easier-death....You can't help that kind of thing-it was like a time bomb ticking aweay....This news really makes me feel bad-we all were rooting for the little guy...

Paul, I'm sorry to hear about Willie. You gave him a good home and did all you could to save him.

thanks sharon. i am a bit relieved to find that it doesnt seem to have been my feeding habits. i was really worried that i had inadvertantly killed him. *sigh* i already had plans to go get some clove-oil today, just in case.

you know, something weird happened last night. sometime in the middle of the night, i had a dream that he was all healed up and swimming around happily. i wish i could remember the dream in more detail but, the rest kind of slipped away already. anyway, i just thought that it was very symbolic of the end to his struggle......... oh great ......... now im getting all choked-up :crp

Paul, I'm so sorry to hear of what happened. If it is any help to you, I know how hard you worked on saving him. Man here I am needing help and you have been there every step of the way and your little guy was struggling. I feel terrible. How I missed this thread is beyond me.
He was a beautiful betta. I'm sure Jillian is right and he is healthy now and swimming like crazy. Even though it doesn't help you, he is better off in Heaven than living with a tumor and being in pain.
You take such good care of your fish and others for that matter. Don't kick yourself. Who would've thought tumor? Our natural instinct is to go for what the common cause is and in this case constipation.

Take care
Oh the dream, wow, sends chills up my neck.

Laurie