We all know that goldfish are messy fish. But 10x filtration is so much more then what is recommended on the filteration box. What is the consequence of having only 3-4x filtration on a goldfish tank?

Hi Ed!

In my experience, when I had one Whisper 60 (300? Gph) on my 55 gallon tank, my ammonia levels were a lot worse, and the water just never cleared all the way up. Now I have the emperor 400 (soon to be 2 emp. 400) with the original Whisper 60, and I have about 700 GPH on my 55 gallon, and my water quality is SO much better. When I just had the Whisper, i was doing water changes every 2-3 days. Now, I do it once a week, and my tank could definetly go even longer if I wanted to (I don't have gravel either). I like doing water changes though, so I never go over a week.

Erika

Hi Errika

What is the advatage of Emporor over the Whisper? I have a penguin with bio-wheel and like it better then the Whisper. I'm not sure what gph the Whisper 60 is at. I would guess 240-300. Anybody know?

I guess the best way to tell that the 10x recommendation is the way to go is to do NO2, NO3 and ammo tests and watch how often you have to change. If the goldfish need more, then buy another filter.

Is there some type of filter that sucks stuff off the bottom? I tend to get a surface skim more then anything and waste is the issue. The filters seem to be more for moving the water then anything and then biological filtration for the bad chemicals.

Also, what about the movement of the water? Don't the fish hate a constant whirlpool and isn't that a stressor? I've heard skeptical remarks from longtime tankholders for going over 5x filtration.

Thanks!

The answer to your question about the Whisper 60 in it does 320-330 gals per hour.

Right now I have a Whisper 40 on a 29 gal and I've been struggling with the cycle on this tank for 10 weeks now. I've done everything and I have done some research and I believe it to be the filter.

Over the last 2 days I've researched the Whisper 60 in comparison to the Emperor 400 (couldn't decide which one I wanted to upgrade to).
Anyway, the Whisper is meant for beginers (the easiness to it) also it is meant more for tropicals. It is a beginer filter until you get the hang of the aquarists. I'm not sure where my husband looked up this info I will ask him tonight when he gets home.
I couldn't link it to my response anyway (computer illiterate)

So on with my story I went with the Emporer 400 we ordered it today from Big Als online.

Laurie

PS I will post how I like it once it is up and running.

ed586, I've wondered about that too. It would depend on how efficiently solids are channeled into the mechanical filter, and of course on the size (ie, surface area) of biofilter.

I wish I had the time and finances and space to experiment.

the best way to make sure that you are getting most of the solid wastes out is to extend your filter intake tube all the way to the bottom of your tank so that it "sits" on the bottom. in doing this, itll create a current that inevitably draws the solid wates towards (and up into) the intake tube. the penguin line of filters actually come with an extension for the intake that allows you to reach this effect.

as far as the ten times per hour rule of thumb goes: when you provide this amount of filtration, it gives you a nice buffer zone for your cycle. its kind of like insurance, you may be able to get by without it but, its sure nice to have the peace of mind when having it.

the recommendations on almost all of the filter companies boxes tend to refer to keeping tropicals that dont need as much filtration. and i wouldnt worry about too much current unless your goldies cant find a "sweet spot" that they can hover at and sleep/rest. plants, caves and whatnot is a good way to break up a current to reach this effect.

hope this helps!

I used to have less than 10x filtration on my 20 gal (had a whisper 30 on it) and I had to clean my tank all the time, because it would just start looking gunky. I had no problem with ammonia or nitrite or anything though. But hauling all those buckets for water changes wasn't fun. Now I have an H.O.T. magnum with a biowheel attachment on this tank (250 gph) and its MUCH easier to keep clean. On my 50 gal I have 2 aquaclear 300's and an eheim canister (116 gph) for a total of 716 gph, about 15x. I have 3 very small orandas in there, and I had to turn the flow down on the aquaclears because the fish were really struggling to swim past the waterfall area and didn't like that (though they had areas of low and no current for resting). I think that when they are larger they'll be fine with the flow full-on though.

Ed---


The difference between the Whisper and the emperor is Bio wheels. Your penguin is basically the same filter as my Emperor. Another thing I've noticed is that since I have the emperor 400, and the Whisper equivalent, Whisper 60, The emperor dumps A LOT more water, and therefore is sucking it up faster. The emperor is much more powerful, plus you have the added benefit of the bio-wheels to grow the bio-spira. Th whisper doesn't ahve anything but the filterfloss. The only problem I have with my emperor is that the intake tube only goes down my tank about 8 inches, cuz the extension made it TOO long for my tank (55 gallon). It's fine though, cuz the whisper is all the way down to the bottom. I'm going to order another Emperor 400 from Big Al's (it's cheaper than I can find it in ANY pet store). I'll just get a different extension.

though I've certainly haven't tried running an experiment, 5x-10x gph turnover rate seems about the same to me in a regularly stocked tank. When I have a overstocked tank, it really seems to help clear out the solid wastes and other gunk in the tank. If I was buying a new filter, I certainly would try to get a big one to try to get to at least 5x-6x. I Also shove in a sponge filter connected to an air pump (so no real water flow) to do the rest. Since the sponge filter has no mechanical filtration, the lone other pump's filter floss will need to be changed more since it gets icky fast.

Hmm.... it sounds like I could use another filter with extension. I'm finding it's safe to be well within the recommendations in order to avoid problems later. Those extensions sound like they may be helpful.

Thanks everyone.

I love my aquaclear 500.
it pumps 500 gph and I have made an adjustment to it so that
the syphon doesnt kill any of the fish. check these four images out.

www.alkadmzu.com

i got rid of the intake tube and took some parts from a surface skimmer
and attatched it to an internal mini filter and the result is quite satisfatory.
I use the aquaclear with two foam blocks which are now rich in good bacteria. I also have
an emperor 400 which seems to be a favorate i guess for the biowheel, the 400 gph and the dual empty media cartriges-I filled mine with gravel.
I also like the aquamaster 600-600gph and is highly recomended by rick at goldfishconnection.com, but have been advised that its replacement
parts are hard to come by. you can pretty much find them at petsolutions.com.
anyway the reason why i bring this up is becuase I currently keep two ryukin,
two oranda and a baby pearlscale in a 55 gallon tank a emperor 400, aquaclear 500 and two anubias bartari. i also have a 20 gallon with another pearlscale and a blackmoor that just wont eat and a pretty weak filter, its a cascade 100 made by pen-plax, i want to move the aquaclear500 on the 20g and want to either place another emp400 or venture into another filter. also i had to cut the extention to the emperor 400 intake tube to reach right over the bottom

Alkad---

Good to hear that I just wasn't doing something right, cuz no matter how I put those tubes together, it just wouldn't work. I was just thinking about cutting it too, that's what I'm gonna do. How much did you cut off of that extension? It'd save me some measuring!!!

errika,

just mount your filter on your tank without the intake tube extention. put the connector peice onto the filters main tube and hold your extention right next to where youd slip it on (keep the screened end on the extender). then youll see right where you need to cut. just put your finger at the spot where youll need to cut so you can mark it before cutting.

did that make any sense?

well, i belive by the feel of that cheap plastic that there may be slight variations in the way they may fit together.
if your 55 is 4' long(horizontal) then it should be 21' tall
the intake tube and the coupler combined should fall 9" into the tank.
the end piece is 3" long leaving only 9 inches to work with.
9" will have the intake tube touching the bottom of tank. but since we all learn from each other mine doesnt quite reach the bottom as tonight is first time i read that ###### is better handled when intake tube is in such position. i was pretty darn close though my tube is 1-2 inches away from the bottom of my tank. if you follow what i wrote above you should get as close as you want to

sorry didnt mean to curse on that last post

I just try to put as many filters as will fit. the faster the dirt gets sucked up the better. also goldfish are so messy I have to clean my filters twice a week! see my sig

Whispers are really crappy. The advantage of a penguin over a whisper is both a less cheap filter overall, and the biowheel, which stores your bacteria in a place different than the poop and such is collected at.

Even many tropical sites I see recommend 10x an hour filtration, it's not just a goldfish thing. I think getting a filter capable of doing the 10x an hour or more is a good idea, and if you decide it is too much, you can easily turn down the flow rate. If you buy too small, you end up spending more money buying a second filter than you would have getting a bigger one to start.

Nice setup Alkud. I'm glad people are finding ways for the fish to find a resting place at 10x. I wasn't sure if I would buy more equipment and just have to let it sit under the sink. I see it can really work.

I have two Emperor 400's on my 58 gallon. And my fish are happy and full of energy. I was talking to my local fish pro, and he said that actually the Emperor 400 does 600gph not 400gph. He said if you look at the Emperor 400 with the lid off, and then turn it on you will see that the spray bars pump water way before the pump starts to pump water through the media. He said that each spray bar pumps 100 gph. So that means that the spray bars are doing 200 gph and the pump does 400 gph for a total of 600 gph. Plus I hear that the Aquaclear 600 does not have the extra room for media like the Emperor 400. And it has no BioWheels. My 58 gallon is being turned over almost 14x per hour!! B)

That Emperor sounds really good, mookie. I appreciate that information. My penguin is starting to look a little sorry....

Actually, come to think of it, I'm not sure if the extra 100 gph is all that beneficial. It isn't really part of the filtration, but just moving the water. Isn't it preferable to move water through the filter rather then blowing your fish a round more then really needed? I meand if you already have 10x?

The 100 gph that come from the spray bars spray on the BioWheels and have really no bearing on the flow or current in the tank. It serves to grow good bac. on the wheels. I think it's the best filter out there.

Cool. It sounds really good.

here's something to think about,
moving all these gallons through the filter per hour is actually over rated.
dont get me wrong, there's something very reasuring about an obscene amount
of gph.
optimal biobugs are actually cultivated when water spends a prolonged period of time exposed to the mechanical filter, so its not how many gallons per hour you move because if you think about it, out of whatever gph there is still alot of bypass.
the bigger the media chamber and the more nonchemical media in it, the more time water spends in contact with ,and the more biobugs, nitifying bacteria to breakdown all the wast produced.
I have actually seen power filters that have media chambers that reach the floor
and are taller than the tank it self while still preserving the overflow-waterfall design. this is also why wet-dry sump style filters are so expensive. dont lose
hope in your emperor 4 i think the biowheel -running at the slowest speed- ensures
alot time with water. the filter floss does what its sopposed to do and the empty
media cartriges, when filled with something good like fine substrate, can make up a pretty alright filter.

Just a question...will it be ok if i use a filter that goes 1000L/h in a 20 gallon tank? Will too much water current hurt my fish? That's around 260g/h... Will they be able to sleep well in all that current? Just a bit worried.

I had aquaclear 500 (500 gph) on my twenty gallon. the fish were fine.
if the fish are small or somehow suffer from any thing that makes them float then you may want to think ofa way to protect them from getting caught on the syphon effect
of the intake tube.
as far as the current; they get more oxygen with a more concistent current.

You see, that's what I started thinking about in this thread. I mean obviously if you have 10x with no filtration, you have problems, I would think. But if the filter is excellent, then a gph declines in importance. I have a wet/dry and it's principle is so highly based on biological filtration and exposing to air and has 3 filters itself, I wonder if this particular wetdry at 4x is actually better then most 10x systems you will find! What do you think?

ed,

alkad_mzu is right. in reality, you dont need to have 10X filtration if youve got a very well established colony of beneficial bacteria. the description of the looong media chamber thats taller than the actual tank is a perfect examle. BUT, probably 99% of us dont have a very "intricate" setup like that. thats why theres the 10X "rule of thumb" (generalized recommendation).

in truth, staying true to the 10X rule has sooo many other reasons behind it:

-it keeps certain algaes at bay with the currents created

-it allows for much better oxygenation

-it keeps stray food bits and poop on the move towards the intake tube

-it wont let protein (oil slick) build up on the surface of the water

-im sure that theres a few things that i missed but, you get the point.

i agree with toothless,
I generally opt for more gph.

hey ed whats the make/model of your wet/dry?

i have been trying to make my old twenty gallon into one
but i get distracted and sidetracked by own imagination.
im thinking that a tank that is not sealed water tight at the top
would require two pumps for intake just before the return causes an overflow.

I have a proaquatics, I believe. I can't get to the literature right now, but will let you know. It uses gravity and siphon to pump out the water and I purchased a powerhead to pump it back in. I think I can get a second powerhead if I wanted more movement and it would still work great. There may some posts on this board that give design sheets on how to make one if that helps too.

whatever brand or type, I will definitely use more filtration power way more than recommended.. such as using several filtration system strong enough for 60 gallon for a 40 gallon tank..

why? buffer.. and you never find water too clean for your goldfish when they are so messy..

buffer works in three way.. (1) filter pump tends to lose power as time goes by (choke or wearing out) thus having extra will ensure you still have the capability to clean the tank sufficiently.. (2) And what happen if you have only one filtration system and it fails?? Yep, having extra will tide you over while you get a new replacement.. (3) extra colony of benefitial bacteria when you are cleaning out another filter, this will prevent cycle crash..

I think in a moderately stocked tank it might not make much of a difference. In my very large, moderately stocked tank it has not made much of a difference. I started off turning over 10 times. Now I am probably right around 5 to 6 times an hour and have not found any noticeable difference.

I suppose I'm one of those who install over filtration.

I have a 15g with 2 x 3" fantails, I know I'm over stocked, but that's all the space I have at the moment.

These are my filtration:
2 sponge filters (which are excellent) powered by Rena air 200
Tom Dive Clean 85B filled with coral chips connected to Eheim 2213 connect to a spray bar.
Eheim Liberty 200 (Main Mechanical filter) with a DIY sponge in the outlet to silent the water splashing.

The total filtration is about 18X, but I turn down both the filtration so that they come to about 10X.

Well what I get is good water parameters and 2 very happy goldfish.

That's cool Jhansolo. Its like you have 25-30 gallons. How many water changes to you need per week?

I change water once a week upto 70-80%, once a month I change 100% as in take the fish out and give the tank a good scrub down.

Without these filtrations which indirectly hold more water, the parameters would have gone out of wack on the 4th day.