Retro, isn't that what Rob called it? Can't remember LOL anyhow, I was asked what my bottom drain looked like so I took pictures of it, finally, today.

First picture is obviously the full bottom drain settup. I used 2 inch pipe to the drains. These cone style drains work very well.



This second picture is a close up of the cones drains that I used. I put a wire net on the inside to keep the babies out. It's worked thus far, no one has been sucked in.



This last picture is of the plastic cover that came with the bottom drains. As you can see the holes are really really small. They were getting clogged all the time and so they were really of no use. I am guessing maybe my skimmer isn't doing it's job so well? The skimmer opening is rather small for the size pond I have, but does keep the top cleaned off, I don't know. Anyhow, I am no longer using these covers.



and for those of you who haven't seen my pump and filter set up click;
My Pump/Fliter thread


Scott

Yes it was me that mentioned the "retro" bottom drain. I have never seen a set up like that before and was thinking you meant something like this.
http://www.aquaticeco.com/index.cfm/fuseac...detail/iid/6822
I have used those green covers in the past but that was for draining my gutter under the patio. It looks like it should work fine but if you can get that wire net off of there. It is going too clog up with the net in there, trust me.
How do you like the new setup? Those sand filters are supposed too be good for trapping fines in the water.

Rob,

Thus far my whole pond experience this year sux (for a lack of a better term). I've mentioned before how much I enjoy working on my pond, the fish, and the whole thing. It is fun, and I want to stay positive about this whole ordeal. The last few days have been so extremely frusterating that I am thinking I never want another pond again. Now that isn't like me because I love the koi, and enjoy the pond. Being koi kichi I've probably spent more money and time on the fish and pond than any normal person would. But I am so stupid when it comes to taking care of the fish that I am pretty close to driving myself nuts. Honestly it is making me sick that I am not a good koi keeper.

The sand filter, clogging because I put too much sand it. I had been backflushing every day. I contacted the dealer he said to take out some sand and replace it with the pea gravel. I followed his directions, which weren't very clear when setting this up. I certainly wish he'd send some dummy directions, that is the least he could do for a set up that costed so much money.

Two days ago my pond was clearer than it had ever been, it was awesome I was proud and i thought finally I've done something right! The pollen started falling off the neighbors huge spruce trees and everything went down hill. The water is so murky that it is almost impossible to even know that I have fish. It's discusting and making me pretty angry. The pollen is still falling (huge trees) but not as bad, I would think that the water would clear up some, but nope, it's the most discusting looking mess I've ever seen. Almost as bad as pea soup.

My fish haven't stopped flashing since I put them in the pond. My largest shusui has a huge gash on it's side. I am feeding them medicated koi food, most wont eat it so those haven't eaten since last friday. I put in melafix for the gash and anything else that may happen. But before I put the melafix in I also noticed my largest butterfly's eye was covered with what looked like white skin, couldn't even tell it had an eye! That was why I got the medicated koi food. Then of course came the melafix. My shiro bekko has burnt looking brown spots on a small patch of scales, and three of my fish have red streaks in their fins. I am at such a lose at this point that I feel like giving up. I don't know what to do! I don't have a microscope because I can't afford one. I don't know anyone with one. I've been completely confused on what kind of salt now to put in my pond that I am even afraid of doing that because I feel as though everything I've done is wrong. I've been getting advice on salt and it all seems different. So my poor fish are out in the pond probably figuring I'm a jerk and am going to let them die.

I'll post the picture's I took of my worst fish.


This is the shiro bekko, the scales on the back are a lot worse now than this picture show's


My Shusui, the red on the side circle is now opened up


My ugliest fish, the red streaks in the fins are really aweful looking, worse that this pictures shows.


And of course the big butterfly, on the right side the eye is covered. It is a little better now than it was, but it's still not right.


Wish someone was here to help me!!!!!!!!!!!! Or I should say help save my fish. My water perameters are fine, 0 ammonia 0 nitrites ph a little high but 9.

(sorry for spewing such a bummer post)


Scott

My god Scott, what has been going on? Don't give up now. You will look back on this day in the future and realize you became a better koi keeper for it.
I really don't no where too start since I am still learning myself but it looks like all of those fish have bacterial infections. If they are going downhill and are not taking food without the use of injections, my guess is you are going too lose them. I have force fed fish in the past and if you are interested let me know. It is a lot easier than it sounds.
My guess as the cause would be water quality. It sounds like a long winter + a complete redoing of the pond left them open for parasites which in turn manifested bacterial infections. If you just give those bad bugs the slightest upper hand they are going too take it.
Without a UV I would expect your pond too go green even with the new filter. The good news is, it is reported that green water has healing properties. I can not give you the reasoning or facts but that is what I have read.
And why is that ph 9? Sounds awful high. What is the KH? If you have green water and a low KH your ph is going too bounce all over the place. Not good.
Number one would be too find what parasites you may have and treat now(I would suggest proform c). As long as you have not upped the salt this will take care of MOST parasites. My main concern for these fish and it may be unfounded but it looks like the bacterial infection has a strong hold on the fish. that is why injections would be the best route.
If you can't afford a scope send me an email. I have one that goes up too 400x and will send too you if you want it. Just cover the shipping.

Also Scott,
If you can take a look at the gills on the shusui. From the pics, this one looks the worst.

My ph stays at 9, it's never changed. I've checked it in the morning and evening. I've checked the ph of the water from the faucet it is also 9. I did put crushed coral in my bio falls, I was told this would help KH. I don't know what the KH is because I don't have a test kit for it. I need to also order one of those. Living in a small town has it's downside when it comes to this hobby.

I ordered some proform C just now. I don't know when it'll be here but hoping it'll do the trick. I ordered twice as much as I need, hoping I'll never need the rest of it. Salt level is at .09 because I did put salt in from the pet store. That is where all of my confusion on salt has come from, they charge 8 dollars for a small container and with the size pond I have it is outrageous! I was told to get an 80 lb bag at Home Depot, but the problem is I still do not understand which one to get. I really feel like an idiot.

I will not put any salt in the pond though until I get the proform C, put it in, and hopefully that will do it. I guess it's never too late to learn how to do injections though. I just am not wanting to do it. It seems like everything I am doing is wrong and I can't get one thing right.

For 6 years I went being dumb about the fish. Not knowing really anything about water quality, never treating the pond, fish diseases what ever and fish were healthy. Last year I started putting microbe lift in because I was told it would be good for the fish and get rid of algae, that was when I started learning about water quality. The more I learn it seems the worse my fish get. Now I feel as though I've really not learned anything because I have no idea what to do! It's frusterating.

Thank you for the suggestion on proform C. I hope it works.

What am I looking for in the gills? I'll look at them.

Scott

Scott, I am awfully sorry about your problems with the new pond and your poor fish...
I am not much of help when it comes to what your koi might have, but if you are looking for the right salt from HomeDepot, its the Solar salt, comes in 40 lb bags, and it shouldn't have any anti caking agents in it. The solar salt is the only one that also contains essential minerals that are helpful for your koi!
Good luck to you and your fish, and don't give up! That Shusui surely is a beauty!

Do not mix the salt and proform c. Try and do some water changes before the proform c comes too lower the salt level. Formalin and salt do not do well together in most instances.
For a few dollars you can get a kh test kit that is accurate. I consider a kh test kit more important than ph but I am sure others will argue that point. And if you need salt, go too the local home store and buy "Solar salt". It comes in a 40lb. blue bag and is meant for water softeners. I pay under $4 a bag. If you need salt calculations open up an ID at www.click2roark.com. It has some great info, is free, and has the best calculators out there.
Always look at the gills when you notice anything wrong with a fish. This normally affects them the most.

Thank you Andrea for the encouragement, I really need it right now. I am honestly at a low point but I don't want to give up. I love all of my fish, I didn't really know how much until this started happening.

Thanks for the info on the Salt, now I hope that they carry that kind. Yes that Shusui is beautiful, I am a sucker for shusui though LOL!

Scott

Rob,

Okay, water changes aren't too difficult as I am backflushing so often. Need more sand out. I wont use any salt though and let the proform C do it's thing.


Scott

For anyone interested in force feeding:
You can buy syringes and air tubing at a farm store. I found the supplies at Tractor Supply.
I then crushed some medicated food wrapped up in paper with a hammer and then mixed with a small amount of water. Then it was sucked up into the syringe and the airtube was placed on the end (cut airtube length based on size of koi). Then measure the dose. From there you just grab the koi, don't sqeeze too hard and insert the tube down the throat. In small koi you will normally hit a stop. From that point hit the depresser and the throat should open up. MAKE SURE your feeding tube is not coming out the side of the gills.
It is one way too get antibiotics in a fish that is not eating without injections although injections are always the best route when you know you are dealing bacterial.

The shusui's gills are deep red, didn't see anything else. I swabbed some hydrogen peroxide on the open sore. It was not a fun ordeal for me or the fish. I just hope I didn't do more bad than good. I tried to knock him out with clove oil but he wasn't going for it (5 drops per gallon). For some reason it had no effect on this fish! I even added a little more when I could see it wasn't working.

And yes as I suspect that sore on the side of him that you see in the picture has grown and is open.


Scott

Scott, I really would try Rob's force feeding idea, and the supplies you need are fairly easy to get. I have a Tractor supply store not far from me, and they have a website as well.
Regarding the cost of a microscope, I keep checking out ebay to find a suitable one, and have gone through the AquaticEcosystems catalog. I can just drive there (45 min away from me) and check them out myself. After trying to help people in the disease section with their fish, and after working on all those parasites and bacterial problems a fish can have, and a lot of them have similar symptoms, I realize that investing in a microscope is money well spent. It doesn't have to be a outragiously fancy or expensive one either.
So, my present for this year's mothers day is...A MICROSCOPE! Most people probably think its a bit weird, but those people do not keep fish in their homes, so I could care less what they think!
BTW, Scott, our local koi club has a microscope that members can borrow if there is a problem. Maybe thats a way to get your hands on one, if you belong to a club!

Like I said, If you are not able too inject and this fish is not eating try entubation. It is easier than what you just went through. The good news is the gills. Even a sick fish with healthy looking gills is a good sign.
The problem with the bacterial infections is it is so hard too determine the amount of damage that has already been done. And even more puzzling can be what caused it in the first place.
My guess would be in the past you had an ecosystem that was working. It was definately in need of an upgrade, but it was working.
After all of your good intentions you disturbed the ecosystem that has been working. So now you are experiencing problems solely because you tried too improve their environment. What a catch 22.
You did the right thing but your fish are suffering. Koi always like stable environments and with all of your upgrades you put them in a vulnerable condition. Now just get the pond on track, backwash if need be and treat with the proper meds.
If you can get them all feeding again that would be a good sign. Do a scrape and identify what is wrong. Then just move on from there. You might lose a few but that never ending learning curve will be higher.
Keep us updated.

more air or less air? I turned up my spray bars to add more air, hoping it might help, they are flashing and jumping more than I've ever seen them do.

The closest koi clubs are either in Boise, 2 1/5 hours away and Salt Lake, 3 hours away. I've been trying to join the Boise club but they don't seem too excited about the idea .



Scott

ALWAYS, More air
Consider that a rule under any circumstance.
As you already know it is extremely hard too diagnose a problem in a natural pond because there are so many variables.
If you ordered Proform C already you might want too try a double strength dose since a standard dose will not take care of flukes. That will also knock out your biofiolter so be prepared. My preferential treatment would be too dose with the proform c as recommended and then use supaverm too clear any flukes. Prazi is even better than suparverm but is more expensive. These two meds will take care of just about every parasite that is microscopic. Also very safe if used according too directions.
I don't know enough about your pond but it sounds like the classical parasite/secondary bacterial infection.
That offer for the scope is still available, just let me know.
Just trying too help a fellow kichi.

Rob,

I just emailed you, I wasn't sure if you were still around. Okay so I'll probably need Prazi as well? I can bipass my biofilter, would that be fine to do for the three day treatment of proform C? I wouldn't think it'd hurt?

I think I may get some help on treating my fish here. My father said he'd help get the injections, as I've emailed you about, so that will be awesome. He also said he'd do the honors, which is even better.

And yes I'd love the scope, but feel as though I am imposing too much. Since the offer still stands I'll take it though I know that it'll be a great benefit in helping me determine what is wrong with my fish. I don't know how much I could thank you for it, I really appreciate this.

Scott

Scott, I am so sorry to hear about your fish. I am glad you have lots of advices and helps from here.

I have no experience wth koi and only have goodies. I sometimes overcome some diseases with just high salt dips followed by pea baths with only prime for every meal. I think how it works is because high salt stripped the slim coat that might have parasite and bacteria stick on them and pea soap would have a broad range bactericidal in them. Natual plants need to defend against bacteria infection and crashed pea should have some of those bacteridal released. But those natural bactericidal definately is not as high dose as the medicine you provide.

If I were you, I would treat the fish in the tank, at the same time treat the pond to kill only parasites there. Treatment with smaller water and frequent water changes would be easier to to control reinfection. I wouldn't worry too much about bad bacteria in the pond since once the food for them is gone, they will reduce themselves to minimal anyway.

I saw your picture of the bottom drain. Do you worry about too many 90 degree turns there? I have no idea about the pond, but have the impression by reading that people try to reduce the resistent by making those turns more like two 45 degrees.

Good luck!

---Goldfishpal

With proform c they recommend that you do not bypass the filter. At double strength it will kill your biofilter and even at the recommended dose it might cause your filter too stumble a bit. At least that is what happened when I used it.
No worrys at all about prazi. It is completely safe for everything and will take care of flukes and any intestinal worms they might have.
If you want too try force feeding you could just leave them in an inspection bowl. This way the fish stays in the water and will not thrash as much.
Keep us updated.

No, the power of my pump takes care of it. I know there are an aweful lot of 90's and did read about how 45's are better. From what I was told, and who really knows if this is true, the 1hp pump is okay with it. I figured 45's would be best as well but figured I'd do what I was told. I get a great suction through them, so I'm guessing maybe what I was told for my pump is correct?

Thanks for the advice. I have so many large fish that it might be good to put them in my 100 gallon tank, and I may just do that. We'll see how things go with the injections (possibly today). I am really sick over this whole thing.

Rob, I'll not bypass then. Doesn't matter anyhow the biofilter has only been hooked up for about three weeks at most. It hasn't had time to properly seed. The health of the fish is far more important to me at this point. I think I'll do anything to get things going for them.

Prazi is expensive! Wow, I couldn't believe the price, if it works it's a good deal though. When I get paid next week I'll order some and by middle of the following week I'll be using it as well. I guess that isn't so bad as the Proform C is a three day treatment from what I've read, that probably wont get here until the middle of next week.

The force feeding thing frightens me. My larger koi flip flop so much I am afraid they'll get injured and cause more harm than good. My larger fish are around 18" the biggest one I believe is about 22". These guys are not to be taken lightly.

They still haven't eaten, well some nibble but that is about it. Wednesday evening is when they started their hunger strike. I hope they are going to be okay, they may not be the best looking mutts around but they are my mutts!

Thank you for the site, I was just there looking around. Nice pictures of injections! I looked all over for some good pics of this and I think those are the best. Looks like there is a lot of useful info there as well. Thank You!!!!!

Also, thank you Rob for sending the scope I am so very grateful!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It will get a lot of use, well maybe I should say I hope it doesn't really get a lot of use because I don't want anymore problems like this. But now I'll be able to pin point the trouble and get it taken care of ASAP. THANK YOU!


Scott

I was reading about bacteria problems, what causese them. I am a bad koi keeper. I found what I believe I did wrong.

First as you suspected Rob, and I am sure it's one of my problems, moving the fish around when the water was cold. Causing stress on them when their ammune systems were already at a low coming out of winter.

Second, feeding the wrong food in the wrong water temps. I was feeding them food that I had left over from last year. I never understood the difference between the spring food, summer food, fall food. Now I know and I'll probably start and end with cherios or something like that from now on. Plus probably feeding too much as well. I am a sucker for the fish, when they beg I feed.


Scott

just talked to the vet, not the vet I normally go to he is out of town but the vet that works with him. From talking to him it sounds like he wants to come over and give the injections. Of course he knows nothing about any of this so I'm suspecting he is wanting to learn. He said they get a lot of questions on fish and he is clueless. He said he wants to do some research and will call back in an hour. I gave him some websites to read up on it. More help is better, but I don't know this vet very well I hope he doesn't want to charge an outrageous amount to learn how to take care of fish when I feel as though I may be fine with the help on giving the injections that I already have. Which by the way is free help!

Scott

I would be wary of letting someone stick my fish that has no experience doing so. If you could get your hands on Doc J's video, get it. It might be old but there is nothing like watching someone do it. I know you are in a bind so just use your best judgement.
So far I have never had the need too inject a fish but I have seen it done. Remember, I am still learning. The person I watched doing it was the health expert at my local pond shop and he was going the IM route. It was extremely easy and he knocked out the fish first with clove oil. I have also heard about not sedating them for their shots. You put them in a bag and let the water out and then stick away. That way you can control the fish without damaging the slime coat too much.
And don't feed them cheerios. Hikari makes an excellent wheat germ based food that is great for feeding in colder weather, or all season long.

The vet decided he didn't want any part of the injections. I have all the stuff for the injections but haven't done them. I finally got ahold of a friend that has a pond and has been getting advice from Bonnie Hale for her fish. She asked Bonnie about my problem was referred to use potassium permangonate (sp) first to see if that would boost the fish to eat. Plus it is supposed to get rid of most everything. My fears of this stuff are HUGE. I never wanted to use it in my pond, the results could be disasterous. I relented though because I am afraid of the injections as well. Having never done anything like that before I figured this might be a better option. I have had the stuff in my pond for two hours now, water is pink, and everyone is okay (so far). I will keep watch over the pond for another 8 hours. After that period everything bad should be dead. This should cause the fish to be starved and eat like pigs. If this theory holds I can start feeding them the Debride again and we have a happy ending. I am crossing my fingers.

Oh, I have the chapter on Potassim permagnanate from Dr. Johnsons book and read it last night and have been reading it again today. I wanted to make sure I knew exactly what I was doing with this stuf as I know it is deadly if not used properly.

Scott

I just talked to Bonnie personally because I noticed another problem that I'd not seen before. My largest butterfly is what she called coned. She said the fish would die and I should destroy it. I can't stand this any longer. She also said that at this point the proform C followed by Prazi is my only option to hopefully save the rest of the fish. Right not I am pretty sick about all of this I don't know if I can handle this loss that seems to be going to happen.

She also said that force feeding them is probably the only way to get them started eating again. I guess when the news is bad and just keeps getting worse one's spirits don't seem to be able to rise.

Scott

one fish dead, my largest butterfly. I am force feeding, they are not too keen on this. Now that I've got them out they are all looking a lot worse than in the water.

I will talk more about what is causing later.

Scott

Can I ask now what the ammonia and nitrite levels are reading? pH of 9 would just magnify any amonia problems you are having, especially only having sent up this new filter. Also, did you use any lime or concrete around the new pond? Fresh cement can leach all sort of nasties into your pond....

Gee, u put in your fish very soon after completing your pond!

It took me 6 weeks (with one "test" koi) before I put in more fish, and even so.. only very small numbers at a time. The filter is brand new!! Filter cannot cope with the waste being produced... not just waste from the fish but waste from leaves getting into pond, from pollen (like you say) getting into the pond etc etc.

Diseases usually strike when the fish are stressed... my first guess because of the new pond is the lack of filter bacteria. If you don't know your amonia and nitrite levels (plus your pH is very high), adding anymore medication is not going to help...

I likened this to sitting in a room with carbon monoxide pumping in, you start getting a headache and then u keep popping headache pills.... yet see no improvement.

Good luck scott...

nitrites 0 ammonia 0. They've stayed at that level since I've had the fish in. I seeded the pond with microbe lift pl. That is what I used every time I've redone my pond and never had any trouble with it.

Okay, now for what I think has gone wrong. The fish from that woman in Oregon. I talked someone in California about these fish that I had gotten from Oregon. The woman never put them in qt she sent them to me after she'd had them for one day! They traveled to her from Japan. I did not know any of that when I recieved the fish. When three died withn 24 hours I called her. Anyhow, these fish stayed in qt for a month and a half (the three that lived). Not signs of troubles and so I thought they were fine. Okay with all that said, I put the fish in the pond in September. The water was cooling. They guy in California said that since the water was cooling what ever they had before could still be there. It looks like he was right because my water started warming up and as it started warming I signs of something being wrong were showing. As I had stated before, I cleaned my pond before winter and cleaned it again when the weather started warming. The fish weren't really even moving around much when I cleaned it the first time this year. I think that the fish from Oregon must have been carrying something still and now I am paying the price for buying cheaper fish.

Okay, so now I've learned my lesson, will not buy fish from Oregon period (I know I am generalizing but you never know, my brother-in-law is from Oregon).

I've gotten most everyone feed, just have two more fish to go. This is a lot of work when one has such a large deep pond. But it's almost done. Tomorow, force feed everyone again and an injection before going back to the pond. I am in hopes that this will do it. Actually, I am not in hopes that anyone will survive I think I may have killed my fish. Although the first few I took out looked worse than I thought they'd be the last 10 have looked really good and so there is hope. My pride and joy though looks like it may be in the starting faze of mouth rot. I am in hopes that the injection will do a lot of good there. I also have a little shusui who's mouth is almost gone, except the bone. It is swimming around fine, hopefully a shot will do the trick for him as well? I've been getting my information from Dr. Johnsons book (which I was lucky to find someone whom had it so I borrowed it).


Next week when the proform C comes I'll do those treatments then comes the prazi. If we make it that far I think maybe the future could be bright for these fish. But if this force feeding doesn't kick start their hunger hopes are grim.


Here is a picture of the fish that died today. It was 18" long and really was a beautiful fish. I bought it when it was 3 inches long, a really little guy. It was 7 years old and did have a good life until these past few days.


Scott

Sorry about the fish, but it sounds like you have a good roadmap. Are you injecting IM or IP? Just curious. And what are you using?
Kevkoi as usual brought up some good points but as I understand this was an established pond and all you did was upgrade the filter. Correct? Did you leave the old filtration running after you put in the new filter? I still don't understand the PH of 9.
It is good you are force feeding but I am sorry too say it can take over a week for them too start eating on their own. And that is if you cure the problems in the first place. If you are injecting them I would only force feed them when they are due for injections. This way they are getting their antibiotics from the injections, and at the same time you can get the gut working again. No need too add anymore stress.
Good luck
Almost forgot,
Don't think pp at that strength is going too take care of all of the parasites. A course of proform c and prazi is much better and safer IMO.
And don't worry too much:
I have seen koi that looked far worse than yours that made it.

BTW, What is the temp?

Water temp is 72.

Yes I used all the old filtration media as well as the new. The old that I had before is in the the bio filter (two large bags full of lava rock approx. 20 lbs. each, plus the two filter sponges), plus I left the filter sponge in the skimmer (which isn't much). Plus as I said before I seeded the pond with microbe lift. And I made sure to check water perameters every day.

I've not taken pictures of my little shusui that I had gotten from oregon, it's horrible look and almost literally made me sick when I first saw him. The mouth is almost gone, except the bone is still there. It's nasty.

Today I will do injections with NuFlor. That is what my vet had on hand and only takes one injections per fish. Now more from what I've read will be required. It is recommended to use the IM with this drug.

Of course along with injections everyone will be force fed again. I am crossing my fingers that they will start eating on their own again. I am hoping I wont have to do this for a week. With work and feedings I'm not sure if I'll be able to get to the fish everyday. Sometimes work get's in the way of what is most important, maybe I should say most of the time.


I am learning a lot, which is good. I just wish I were not learning with lives on the line.

Scott

Most of the fish got injected today and everyone was force fed. It all went off great. I hope that I did some good for them today. The ones that were not injected where fish that did not show any signs of problems. Surely they have what ever the other's have I am just hoping that with force feeding Debride that they will get the anitbiotics they need. Plus the proform C should be here by Tuesday and if everyone is doing well I am in hopes they will be on the road to recovery.



Scott

This little guy doesn't look so good. He is swimming around great, acts like he wants to live. I guess that is a plus. He was force fed yesterday and today, I put a Potassium paste on his mouth today plus he got an injection. The popeye is the main concern I think. From what I've read the mouth can rejuvenate (sp), but popeye is difficult to treat. I think the eyes popped out because of stress, if this is the case there is a possibility they will go back in from what I've read.






I think I may have to force feed this one longer than the rest. About half of the fish that have been force fed the past couple of days are starting to nibble on food that is put in their tank. They aren't over inthused about eating, but they are eating. The other half still not eating. I have some smaller fish left in the pond (between 6 and 8 inches), all are eating excitedly which is what we are all used to in healthy fish. I can hardly wait for the proform C to get here as I'll be putting that in the pond ASAP and hopefully those in the pond wont be impacted like the ones in the tank.

I am in hopes that we are on the road to recovery. We'll see.


Scott

Sounds like good news for a change. The popeye does not look too bad on that fish and hopefully the injections will do their job. I have heard of Nuflor but don't know too much about it. Hopefully someone else can offer some insight.
The temp of 72 is good but 78 would be much better. Is there any way you can add some of those deicers that I believe you use in the winter?
And be extremely careful when using a PP paste that it does not get into the gills.
Always a good sign when they are eating on their own. Keep up the good work and keep us posted.

I had to put them in the pond. They were jumping out of the 110 gallon troff they were in. I came out and found blue on the pavement. So now they are in the pond jumping like crazy. I am afraid to go to bed. This sux. It's more than likely the new water but there was nothing I could do. From the force feedings the ammonia and nitrites in the troff were too hard to keep under control. I did 5 water changes today, I guess that is a good sign? Their digestive system is working again. I just hope they all eat tomorow.

Scott

Everyone is still alive. No one ate today though i was in hopes that they would eat. It was cold and windy, very windy and then rained this afternoon. That could be why. I'm in hopes that is why. I am sure that all that they went through this past weekend has probably made them a little shy as well. Poor things, I feel bad for them they don't understand what is going on.

I wish I could use the heater's to heat the water a little, they don't switch on until the water get's down to a certain temp, around 33?

I was very careful with the PP past. The mouth on that fish to me looks better today, I could just be hoping. Also my nephew pointed out that the eyes weren't bulging like they were. I hope he is right, he saw the fish saturday after it's eye's popped out and then today, not sunday.

I'm having a rough time with Ammonia and nitrites now though. This is such a mess. I worried all day today about them. Ammonia is just a little high, same with nitrites. Neither is quite .25 but they are above 0 because the color changed slightly in the test tubes. Ammonia had a very slight green tent, and the Nitrite wasn't quite the color it has been when at Zero. I put in some microbe lift theraputic, supposedly (and I suppose I'm hoping for a miracle) the box claims it instantly seeds biofilters and oxydizes ammonia and nitrites.

I love these fish and am soooo worried I'm going to lose them. I've honestly been thinking today that if I do lose them I'll fill in the pond. I'll pull up my liner and take the pump and filter store it and when I move to Oklahoma have it for a pond there, maybe. I get too attatched to my fish. I have one that will let me pet her and likes her belly rubbed and another that was my first Japanese import which is honestly the fish that really got me excited about koi. It's hard trying to get myself detatched and understand that they could go and maybe there isn't anything I can do. At least I've been trying to tell myself that.

Scott

Scott,
Sorry but it sounds like Murphy's law. With all of them in the main pond and since they are not consuming much food you should be OK with ammonia and nitrite until after the proform c dose. It only takes three days. And around 75% of ammonia is excreted through their gills not the waste they produce. And get your temps as high as you can (meaning the closer to 78 the better).
After the proform c you can up your salt to .3% and use an ammonia binder like amquel or pond prime. That will help you get through the cycle again without doing harm too the fish.

Today I checked my water perameters and everything is great. 0 nitrites 0 ammonia, maybe the microblift therapeutic did what the label said it would? We'll see. I am deffinately hoping it did. That is huge if it did.

Big problems with temp. For some reason Idaho decided to go back to cold (what else is new). It's been getting down into the 30's at night and mid 50's during the day. Rain Rain Rain, and more rain coming. The water temp. is now at 60 someone please tell me this isn't so bad? Rob I know you said I need to try and get them up to 78 but it doesn't seem like the weather is going to help. I can't imagine how much it'd cost to get a heater and heat my pond. Do you think I can get by with this dip in the temp?

I was wanting to raise my salt levels to .3% but have been holding off for the proform C. When is it going to get here????????????????????? I figured it'd be here today but it's not. Looks like the prazi might get here first and I ordered it three day's after. It'll be here the 13, the place I ordered the Proform C from didn't send me a tracking number so I have no idea where it is.

Good news, actually this is exciting news. The Shusui seems to really be healing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Mouth looks better and it's eyes look to me like they've gone back to normal as well. I didn't get a good look at him because he is pretty quick and takes off when anyone comes around. But I am positive his eyes were back to normal. Way happy day's. Now if they'd only eat!

Scott

Sounds like the injections are working. Good news!!
The reason I suggest 78 is because this is the temp where their immune system is top notch. I honestly don't know how the lower temps are going too affect their healing but it won't help.
Good idea too hold off on the salt for now. Did you proform c them yet?
I am not sure if the proform c needs too be dosed differently because of your temps but the bottle makes no mention of it. It says it can be used all the way down too 50%.
Good luck and keep us posted.

I haven't gotten the proform C yet. It seems they didn't send it until MONDAY. I guess they figured I could wait. I called them and asked where it was and they said 'you didn't order until saturday and it was sent monday morning.' I ordered it thursday. After talking to them I checked my e-mail reciept to make sure and then sent them an e-mail informing them that I did order thursday. Doesn't matter, it wont be here until tomorow.

I brought everyone in the house to warm them up. The temps aren't going to be getting warmer here soon enough and I am worried that they may not make it without the warmer water. I put a heater in with them and am slowly warming the water. I just don't want to warm too fast. Right now the water is at 65 degrees and I worry that it has warmed to fast already. I think it's because of the warmth inside helping it to heat up so fast. Heater is set at 65 so we'll see if it warms anymore in about an hour.

I have a question. I have read a lot about Proform C and everything I've read states it is mild on the fish. I did call someone in Salt Lake when I found Blue (my favorite fish) laying on her side. I needed someone to help out now. The guy there told me to salt up to .3% but of course not more than .1% a day. I told him I have Proform C coming and asked shouldn't I hold off until it get's here. He claimed that it might push my fish over the edge because it has Formalin in it. So would it be better to salt or proform C? I almost put some salt in their tank but didn't do it because I know you said it would work. This is all so confusing.

Ammonia 0 Nitrites 0 ph 9 maybe that microbe lift is a micracle worker on biofilters? Who knows, but I pumped the water from the pond into the 100 gallon troff that they are in. I didn't want to cause too much stress on them. I am just going to have to make sure I do good water changes to keep the perameters good.

I lost the Shusui with the mouth rot today. I felt bad for him but I wasn't sure if he would make it after I had treated him on sunday. Of course I hoped and he did seem to be doing a lot better monday and tuesday. My Shiro Bekko now looks way bad. The spot that I pointed out earlier on this thread has some brownish green stuff caked on it. I don't know what it is and I am not sure if I should take it off? Maybe it is healing? I'm not sure. The largest Shusui that I pointed out the cuts earlier on the thread seems to be healing. The area that was cut is now all white, which I've read is a sign of the skin healing over. I had put hydrogen peroxide on the wound friday.

That is all the updates I have. Blue, my favorite fish, is still swimming around okay I just went and checked on her.


Scott

Sounds like you now have a triple infection. Just add fungus too the list. This is all the more reason too use proform c. Not only does proform c reliably eliminate most parasites it also treats fungus. Now tell me if salt can do that. I like salt but it has its limitations and it uses. Anything other than ick and I am not using salt for parasites.
Since you moved them in and are heating you could safely rise the temp around 7-10 degrees a day but MAKE SURE YOU AERATE. Thom B on NI actually has a koi ICU. The main parts of his system are higher temps, higher aeration, and a clean environment.
All of those koi in a 100 gallon trough is going too be tough. I don't know what too suggest but I think I would rather deal with the colder water and 4,000 gallons rather than the overcrowding. I am really not sure so check that one out if you can.
And did you order from pondrx? Just curious.

I ordered the proform C from Adams Aquatics in Texas, they were cheaper than anyone else. I also ordered Prazi but got that from Pond Pets USA, the guy with the awesome pond from Koivet.com.

I am having troubles with perameters now. This weekend I am going to build a 500 gallon tank for them in the garage. It is very warm in there, in fact it is warmer there than in the house. I am thinking that as warm as it is in there the water temp will warm up nicely. This should be a lot better for the fish.

I will start using the proform C ASAP. I got it today along with the Prazi. After proform C is done I'll start raising salt level and use Prazi. What ever they have hopefully this will knock it right out.

I have lots of air going in the 100 gallon troff.

Scott