Does anyone know the difference between chinese and
japanese koi?
are the japanese ones more commonly sold?
and has anyone got pics of a chinese koi
thanks

Japanese koi, Chinese koi, Malaysian koi, Indonesian koi, Isreali koi, Australian koi... they're all the same: KOI or simply Coloured carp (Cyprinus carpio).... exactly the same genetic and scientific name of the feral carp in Australia!

The differences in price of koi lies in how serious the culture for line-breeding bloodlines and culling comes in. The Japanese have perfected most of the modern day koi show standards and adhere to it very strictly. Hence they are very very very good at their selection and culling. What koi we see come out of Japan are selected fish... the vast majority of fries are culled... ie in a spawning of 10000 fry, 1000 are selected to grow on to their first year, 9000 are culled!. Of that 1000 that grow up in the first year, only a small proportion of them are selected for growing up to the second year etc etc... so at the end of the day, the top grade tategoi at 2-3years old are probably 1 in 500 000.

No other country that produces koi are so stringent in their selection... they mainly produce koi for the mass market with very little consideration to show standards.

Koi or Carp are not even native fish to Japan or China! ... and neither are goldfish!

kev

What always wonders me about Israeli koi is, its warned against putting them into salty water, since they had never been exposed to it before. How come?

thanks kevkoi
i didnt even know israel have their own kois

what the... i thought goldies originated from china
i read it the other day
where do they really come from?

OK, Goldfish do occur in China, but they have a wide geographic range.

Native Range: Eastern Asia, including China and perhaps adjacent regions; also possibly parts of Europe if C. auratus gibelio is a valid subspecies and not just a feral introduction (Raicu et al. 1981).

cool
i thought they only came from china and then traded
to all other parts of the world just like spices was back in those days
after Japanese koi which one is generally rated second?

Country that produces a larger amount of decent quality koi after Japan is a hard one..... Toss up between, Isreali koi, Taiwanese koi IMO, but they're a looooong way back where consistency is concerned.

kev

so in australia,
do we only get australian koi sold to us?

YES... period.

Although there is underground trade in koi (between the serious enthusiast), just like there is for all other "non-importable" fish in Australia.

Dodgy place this country is... disallow something and it just goes underground.

i know what you mean
once something is ban, it just gets dealt with in the black market
isnt there a way do this legally like
proper quarantee or would it be too expensive?
i know when you by leather and stuff
they will spray it with chemicals and you got to pay for it
but you still get it back in the end just as long as you declare it

So why doesn't Australia allow koi to be imported in? I hope this isn't a dumb question LOL. All other countries, I think, allow it.

Scott

its because of the tough quarantine laws
it also true with new zealand
one of my friends brought two oranges to new zealand and didnt declare
and was fined 200 bucks
thats whats it like down here
but its fair enough, because we want to protect our agriculture
australia sells mostly agricultural products not high tech manufactured products
to the world market, thats why we have these laws

'cos koi are essentially carp and Australia has plague proportions of carp it is trying to irradicate. Carp muddy up the rivers and destroy the habitat of native fish here in Australia. THAT is the governement's rationale for banning them....

Here in Aust, if you go fishing and catch a carp, u release it and u will be slapped with a fine! Carp are noxious and are to be destroyed on sight if caught in the rivers, creeks and natural ponds.

hey kevkoi
did you hear about how some fishkeeper
released some alligater weed into the hawksbury river
and how its grown wild and the govt. has to spend
heaps to clean the place up.
thats why the govt. is so strict
there are so many pests here (im not one of them, hopefully )

another question kev, have you seen those koi that arent torpedo shape
i thought they were chinese koi, but what are they exactly
they are fat height wise and are not wide like a normal koi

Huh?? U lost me there?

What chinese koi don't look like carp?

Ah, the Alligator weed....Alternanthera philoxeroides. They're nasty.

It defies me what the Aussie government is really doing anyway.... All their laws and regulations are IMO not doing any good anyway. One of the worst fish culprits to cause environmental damage every year in Aust I believe comes from the faithful old Goldfish..... Personally, if the govt was REALLY doing it's job to "protect the environment" the importation of Goldfish would be banned 2morrow!... but they wouldn't dare.... There would be too many powerful lobbies to go up if that were to happen.... So, by the same logic, if you allow one menace to come in, why not allow the rest of them?

Oh... this country's laws and regulations are confusing and inept! :angry:

the funny thing is that all the so call native animals
cant even compete with the introduced species
take for example the possum
they cannot successful protect this species in australia
but when they introduced it into new zealand it
became a pest
they say that its because of the dingo and wild cats
but then why can rabbit and all these other animals
live so successfully here
theyve tried everything with the rabbits and they just keep getting stronger
they introduce diseases that were supposed meant to wipe them out
in a less than a decade, they tried to go on a shooting rampage
followed up with blowing up their warrens with tnt
nothing has stopped them and i believe nothing will

Usually when people buy "koi" in a pet store they are getting Shubunkin instead of the larger "show" quality Koi. They generally reach about 14" while Koi can reach up 36" and 45lbs. It is believed that they originated in the middle-east as Magoi and were sent to the far east as food supplement; but in the early 1800's the Japanese began breeding the "mutants" that showed color variations and eventually we end up with what we have today. True koi (high quality not show quality) can be purchased for anywhere from $50 on up depending on the breeding lines. Show quality can go for $1000's.

ok thanks chrisp
but i dont get it
they say that kois are related to goldfish
i mean that they have common ancestry
but if kois are from the middle east and goldies
are from china then how can this be so?

"Related" in a sense... their common ancestry goes back a long way. It's almost like saying man and ape are "related"

Goldish are Carassius auratus.

Carp are Cyprinus carpio

They don't even share the same genus name anymore!

---------------------------------------------------------
Kinda like humans are Homo sapien

Chimpanzees are Pan troglodytes
----------------------------------------------------------

The range of the common carp ranges from the middle east, thru europe and over to parts of northern Asia. http://www.fishbase.org/Summary/SpeciesSum...carpio%20carpio

Shubunkins and carp can quite easily be differentiated. Koi have barbels on their lips and shubunkins being goldfish do not have barbels. Hybrids of carp and goldfish have been noted. Hybrids are not common in the hobby (Long fin/fairy koi are NOT hybrids between koi and goodfish! Please get this one right!) and hybrids of koi and goldfish are sterile. (much like the Mule which is a sterile hybrid of the horse and donkey)

U confused enough yet?

i think i get the picture
but dont try to explain this to someone who
doesnt have much interest in fish/koi
when your talking about the hybrid koi you mean the
ones with the fancy tails right
ive seen some on this site but never at the store
also beside the barbel, shape is there any difference between a koi and goldfish
like internally?
ive also notice that my koi is getting 2 set of barbel
one on the upper lip and the other on the bottom of the lip
is this normal?

Yes, they are meant to have 2 sets of barbels.

how's your pond going kevkoi?
its getting cold in Sydney
is there anything you have to do with your koi??
or do we just reduce the feeding