Hi
I was wondering if anyone could help me.
I have 4 fantail goldfish and one black moor. Yesterday I noticed that all of the fish had their top fins down. The larger 2 fish have also been acting quite strange by sitting at the bottom of that tank and also hanging veritically. Sometimes they look as if they are in a trance. If I feed them their activity increases.

I have only had 3 of the fish about 2 weeks with the other 2 being about a year old (the larger 2 fish). They are in a 10 gallon tank with filter. I swapped the tank from a 5 gallon tank to a 10 gallon tank about 2 weeks ago whe I introduced the Black moor and the small fantails and a fishtank plant. I also changed their food about 2 weeks ago from the crumbs to the flakes. Everything was fine until yesterday.

I bought a water tester kit today and tested the water.
Nitrates were at 40
Nitrates at 0
The water is hard water
Total Alkilinity is 180
Ph is 8.4.

I don't know what all these figures mean and whether theres are correct conditions for the fish.

I have removed the plant and changed the filter today.

I have not fed the fish since yesterday morning as I don't know if I have been over feeding them. I am not a goldfish expert but I have become quite attached to my fish.

I hope someone can adivce me

the ph is a little high and i think the nitrates are too. i would do a 25% water change and add some ph down solution to it.

Hi

The problem is most likely to be high ammonia - the one parameter you haven't mentioned.

When you add new fish to a tank or set up a new tank - and of course you have done both - the biological filter (the beneficial bacteria which convert ammonia from the fish wastes into nitrite and nitrate) takes some time to build up. This means that for the first 4 week or so you manually have to keep the water safe by performing regular partial water changes; thisis called cycling the tank (for more information about cycling click here

However, you have a big problem in that your tank is very overstocked; goldfish are especially messy fish and therefore they actually need about 10 gallons per fish, so yours should be in a fifty gallon tank, not a 10. As such, you will find it very difficult - if not impossible - to keep the water quality good. You will need to perform 50% water changes daily to keep the ammonia down to a safe level. This is what I suggest you do immediately; you should find your fish start perking up as soon as the water quality is improved.

As for the pH, it is definitely high but within a tolerable range for goldfish so I would not try to adjust it yet. However, you should make absolutely sure there is nothing in the tank which is sending the pH soaring; do you have any rocks, coral, sand, seashells or gravel in the tank? These can all send the pH up. The main thing that stresses fish out is pH swings, so test your tap water and see if that has the same pH as in the tank: if it does, then that's OK but if not, you'll need to find the cause of the pH changes.

Hope this helps.

Thank You for you adivce.

I am so upset that I am overstocked. I was told by the pet store that Goldfish need 1.6 gallons each, that it why I thought it would be safe to add more fish. I wouldn't have done if I had known.

I have just changes 50% of the water. I don't know if this will have an immediate affect I will watch them over the evening. I will go and get an amonnia test kit tomorrow.

I have checked out my water quality and it is the same as the fish tank with the exception of the Nitrate level which is 0 for our water and 40 for the fish. The PH level is the same as the fish tank.

I have some water conditioner which I am adding according to the instructions. It is suppose to reduce stress, remove chlorine and chloramine, neutralizes harmful metals, stimulates fish slime coat naturally and addes beneficial elecltrolytes.

I will let you know tomorrow if the fish are any happier.
Thanks again

It is almost 8 am. I did the 50% water change last night but the two larger fish (olders fish) are sittingat the bottom of the tank, they have not moved from last night. I am going out to get an ammonia testing kit this morning to see what the level is

I am really concerned about them, Although the smaller fisher are swimming about they also have their fins down

I have just checked the ammonia level and it is safe according to the bottle. To be on the safe side I have bought some ammoia treatment and am going to replace 25% of water as they suggest and add the treatment.

All of the fish are now hovering at the bottom

I am not sure what my next step is. The water seems to be O.K. Does anyone know how long it will be before I should see any change in their behaviour?

When you say "safe" for the ammonia, what exact number is it giving you?

While fish can adapt quite easily to a wide range of pH values, the ammonia is more toxic at a higher pH, so what the test box says is safe may not be for your tank.

The safe level on the box is .25

I have just changed 25% of water and added Ammonia Chloramine Eliminator ACE. one teaspoon to 10 gallons. I then aerated the tank for one hour.

This was about an hour ago.

There is no change in the fish. Am I expecting miracles? Will it take longer for the fish to respond. I don't like seeing them this way.

Hi fish family,

I would say that you can't expect the fish to immediadly respond. I've never worked with those levels of PH before, but it's good you tryed to correct it. I have one very sensitive fish that can't take a huge PH level change and rests at the bottom very quickly. Remember, sudden changes in the chemistry can effect your fish, especially with the PH. Ammonia elimination is essential in your case, however. Keep tabs of the chemistry, leave it if there is no change and see if that helps.

Finally, do you have an additive for tap water? If you are doing a water change, all water should be sit out for 24 hours or use a special additive. I don't remember what it's called, but it eliminates clorine for one thing. Have you used it? It is also recommended to make sure the new water is at room temperature since the fish are sensitive to sudden temp changes.

Let us know how it's going and we may be able to help!

Good luck!

I reread one of your reply. It appears you are adding the correct additive for water changes, so that's good.

Thanks for your advice. ed586

I did the ammonia eliminator about 2 hours ago how long would you expect it to take to show a difference and when do you think I ought to check it again.

I have something called Good Start which is for tap water.

I always try and match the water temperature of the tap water to that of the fish tank.

I have heard that salt is good to add into the tank. do you think that it would be appropriate in this case.

What I can't understand is that I have my two largest fish for over a year they where in a 5 gallon tank and thrived. All I used is good start and cleaned them out each month. The problems started about 2 weeks after putting them into the New 10 gallon glass tank. Is this a case of sick tank syndrome?

I am so please that I am able to ask question this is a wonderful website

I'll do my best. There are some others who may have more experience here, that may be of more help, however.

The "Good Start" sounds good, just make sure you have the correct amount there. But it sounds okay to me.

The large fish-- how large are they?

It is typical that with being overstocked that if there is a change you get almost inexplicable problems like this. It is probably not "sick tank". You might check for symptoms to see if there is a disease, but I haven't heard anything that makes me think it has to do with anything but the tank chemistry.

You did a good job with the ammonia reduction. Be careful with the ammo eliminator. In my opinion it is better to reduce ammonia with a water change like you did. I think it's best to give it time. Are you using both the 10 and the 5 gallon. It might help the chemistry or help them not feel crowded.

Hi Ed586

I have run more tests on my tank and evertying seems to be fine
Nitrate 20
Nitrite 0
ph7.8
Ammonia .25

To be on the safe side I have added ph down as I understand that water with a higher ph can make the ammonia level more toxic.

Anyway I have been looking at the fish and I have noticed some white spots on them. I looked in my book which suggests Ick. However they have started to act strangley too. One minute they are at the bottom of the tank, very listful, the next they are darting around. Their tails look a little frayed as well. I also caught my biggest fish who is about 2 inches long, rubbing up against the air pump. I have been to the local pet shop and looked at the medication, which suggests that the fish may have parasites.

Does this sound likely to you?

There is a good chance they have Ich. Are the spots all over them? This can be deadly. Leave the new and the infected fish in your one tank and put the others in a seperate one if at all possible. You may be able to prevent them from getting infected. I only say this because Ich wiped-out my whole tank before.

Definately get the medicine. If you read some of the notes on treating ich on this site they suggest aquarium salt as the treatment. If you want to start a new thread, you might get a few good replies too. I don't know much about treating it, but some have been quite successful.

The levels that you are at are perfect. Don't use the ph down unless you have too. It stresses the fish to move the ph too much. Keep us posted.

Fin down is a sign of stress or sickness..

stress are caused by water factor, environmental (sound and movement and too much light on and off, etc), food (bad food), temperature

so far you have not mentioned temperature and everyone here is assuming you are placing the fishes in a right spot..

to provide for a less stressful environment, provide them with some plants.. it will provide for hiding place, more oxygen, and as a source of food..

SICKNESS - this is serious.. but very obvious by scnning the fishes carefully for sign of any possible sickness.. Most commonly - Ich (white grains on body), Worms (coming out from gill and under scale or floating around), rot (tail reddish with parts looks like being eaten) and infection (this is tougher and usually does not come so suddenly)

by the way, how long have you had this tank and was thereany major activities recently (big change such as adding or changing display items, etc)??

Nitrite is more dangerous to fish when the pH is high. Adding goldfish salt helps fish tolerate nitrite and is a good general tonic. Follow the dosage on the instructions. It sounds as though your fish may be sick, if you are not sure what the problem is your lfs should have a "cure-all" medication and you could give that a go. I would also dispose of any new live plants as these may have introduced the disease to your tank.

Hi fi5hkiller

They have a house which at the moment they are all trying to hid in.
I had a plant in there, but since I have been having problems I took it out. I was wondering if that was affecting the water quality.

Since they have been ill I have been placing a towel over the tank to try and keep it peaceful.

They have been in a corner of the kitchen for the last year but the problem only started a couple of days ago. I don't want to mve them yet incase I cause even more stress. I will keen them covered if you think this would help.

I don't know what to treat them for

I bought a parasite treatment yesterday and started that but I don't think that this includes Ick. When I read the back of the box the description for internal parasites said that the fish would be listful, then sometimes dart around and have fins down and rub on what every they could find. This is what mine have been doing.

However their fins looked ragged and they seem to have small salt like spots on there tail. I can't really see any spots on the body of the fantail but they do seem to be a few on the black moor.

Can I treat them for both parasites and ick at the same time?
Should I stop the parasite treatment ( I have to repeat it tomorrow) and treat them for ick.

The good thing is that that still seem to be interested in food

THis my sound silly but I am not sleeping thinking about these fish. That all I seem to think abought at the moment. I just want to get then well

Hi Fishmerised.

I took the plant out when I started to have problems. I will look for a cure all medication. Thanks
Any idea when I should see an improvement in the fish after medication?

If your fish have ick, which is what the white spots sound like, there is stuff you can buy at most pet stores called "Quick Cure" it is for ick and other parasites. It is also sold at nnnnnn for like $2.85 a bottle.

also, do you have both a 10 gal and a 5 gal tank? If so, maybe you should set up the 5 gal tank and let it run for a few days, then add the new/smaller fish to that tank, and leave your bigger fish in the 10 gal. that way it won't be so crowded.
-also, I'm not an expert, but I don't think it's good to give the fish too much medicine at one time. You should see if the meds for the parasite that you are currently giving them work before you start another medicine. If you don't see improvement in the white spots on your fish by tomorrow, you should do at least 20% water change and start giving them the Quick Cure (if you can get it).
-keep us posted on how they are doing, I hope they feel better very soon!

I understand the temptation of them, but 'cure-all' medicines are generally a bad idea. If you don't know what you're treating for, don't treat it, because the medicine is very unlikely to cure the disease and may only stress the fish further.

It sounds very much like they do have ich, judging by the few white spots and scratching / listlessness. Ich doesn't always show up as grains of salt - it can manifest itself only as flashing and a thickened slime coat in some cases.

To treat ich, increase the tank temp to the high 70's- and you will need to increase the oygenation too - and either use salt or a store medication like Rid-Ich. Keep treating the fish until they have been symptom-free for at least 6 days and only then stop the treatment (ich has a nasty habit of coming back when you thought it had gone).

If you want to use salt, the dosage is 3 teaspoons per gallon, added in increments of 1 tsp per gallon every 12 hours. You can use any salt as long as it doesn't have anti-caking agents and it needs to be dissolved completely in some old tank water before adding it to the tank.

Good luck!

so, using "quick cure" is bad?

and what is flashing?

my fish recently had what i thought was ick, but i'm not sure exactly because i saw no spots on their bodies.....i also didn't know that you could use salt to get rid of ick...i have salt made from evaporated sea water, should I dissolve that before i put it in the tank?

Just wanted to update everyone that offered me advice about my fish.

I tested the water about 10 days ago and the nitrite was at a danger level although it had been fine the day before. Although the fish were stressed I decided that I would change their water completey and take the new fish out and put them in the 5 gallon tank.

I treated both tanks with Ich treatment and within 2 days everyone was fine again.

I am now running 2 fish tanks, not what I wanted but if the fish are happy then so am I.

I want to Thank Everyone who offered me advice. I learnt alot about Goldfish in a very short time.

I was great to have people to speak to at a time of concern.