I just spent the whole day taking care of my fish, draining my pond, taking down my water fall, and cleaning gunk out of the bottom of my pond. What a mess and it could have been all avoided.

1. If you want a pond and are going to have fish make sure that you are going to build it large enough the first time. If you think for even a second larger would be better, spend the extra money and build it larger. You will be happier in the long run because redoing your pond again and again and again is a mess and ends up costing a lot more than spending the extra money in the begining. Believe me, I know, I've added on four times and have had added headaches because of this.

2. If you are going to have fish please get a pump and filter system that is going to handle the size of pond you have plus the fish load. Don't GO CHEAP!!!!!! You buy a cheap pump, that is what you've got and even though it works now, usually they do not last. Plus, the electrical cost of running a cheap pump is generally a lot more than a more expensive pump that is actually made for what you want (sure the cheap pumps are made for this, but they aren't exactly going to do the job you may want). If you have a larger pond do yourself a favor and spend the extra (which certainly is a lot extra) for the good pump and filter system. Your fish will love you for it and you are going save yourself a lot of headache, heartache, and money in the long run.

3. Research everything before you start. Price everything before you buy anything. Check out the cost of running each pump and compare them. You will be surprised to see that the better made pumps are going to cost you a lot less to run, but a lot more up front. (and I mean a LOT less to run) Make sure that you understand water quality, pH, nitrites, ammonia, salt etc.... and also do a little research on fish problems. If you are going to have koi or goldfish or both buy a book on how to take care of them, with a good guide on diseases.

4. Look for a water garden club or koi club near you. These people will help you with anything you may need. This will probably be the best thing you could do by joining a club like this. They will point you in the right direction for what ever you need and will be extremely valuable in times of crisis.


I'm sure I've left out stuff. Just remember, when building your pond, don't use the cheapest materials you can find. Always remember you get what you pay for and with ponds this deffinately apply's.

Also, put in a bottom drain!!!! If you have fish in your pond and you have a large pond (around 1,000 gallons or more) you really should put in a bottom drain. Certainly there are ponds without them, but it is so extremely important to keep the sludge, leaves etc.. buildup off the bottom. So many problems result from this one thing. Please, no rocks in the bottom if you have fish.



Now, why did I post this? Because as I stated at the begining of this thread I spent the day taking care of my fish and pond. I was a stupid pond owner when I put my first one in. I didn't know what I was doing but figured I didn't need any direction or help. I've been very very very lucky until now that I didn't have a high mortality rate on my fish. Never had sicknesses. Lucky. I've already had one fish die this year, had one fish which was sick, and I've had to learn quickly what to do. Now my largest fish has an ulcer on her head. I've had her 7 years, she was the first fish in my first pond. So today I gave every fish in my pond a salt bath, I put her in clove oil and then put some hydrogen piroxide on the ulcer and now everyone is in the water troff waiting for the water to be put back in the pond.

I clean my pond regularly, I have to because I have three CHEAP pumps with CHEAP filters. But, I obviously wasn't cleaning good enough. I found all sorts of stuff in my 5 foot deep area and was shocked by it. Why is it there? I DON'T HAVE BOTTOM DRAINS! I do have a CHEAP pump and filter on the deep end, but honestly, it's cheap and it certainly can't come near to what a bottom drain would do in cleaning the pond and keeping the water quality good. Just to let you know how cheap my pumps are, I can't run the garage door while I have all three pumps going, they suck that much electricity! Can't run the air conditioner if all three pumps are going!


I hope all of you want to be and soon to be pond owners read all of this. Please learn from my stupidness. Please do not make the same mistakes I've made.

I have a 4,000 gallon pond and have spent almost 6,000 dollars on it now. If I had done it right the first time I would have saved my self about 3,000 dollars. That is a lot of cash, cash that I cannot afford really to lose. So, spend the extra upfront cost and do it right.

Submersable Pumps for a larger pond are NO GOOD.

This week I am also going to buy koi meds that will keep so I have them on hand. I have to buy them on the internet, if had them now I'd feel better about my fish.




My fish are doing great though and they will be back in the pond tomorow. Yes I am going to lay all the plumbing for my new filter system tomorow and it will be up and running before this next weekend. I'd have it all finished probably tomorow but some of the pipe that I need I can only get at a pumbing store and they close earlier than I generally get off work, don't open on weekends, so that might hold me up a bit.


I feel like a dolt.

Scott

I need to add, I don't mean to scare anyone away from this hobby. It is extremely rewarding. I have enjoyed my pond journey, even though it's been flusterating at times. It is all worth it. I love my fish and I suppose I am more angry at myself for not taking the right paths in order to insure them to have a healthier invironment. Plus I've not really been ready to make sure that I could take care of a problem as it arises.


Anyhow, dig your hole in your yard and enjoy it! I'm just in hopes no one makes the same mistakes I did.



Scott

im with you all the way Scott
getting right first time is far better than
doing a dodgy job and fixing it later on
my cousin done that and now he
has to go to all the hassle to fix up cracks
he had no place to put his fish and leftthem with me and
the list goes on
i think you need to be patient and the research is the most
important part and you should spent most time researching
building the pond is just the icing on the cake
thanks scott, i almost forgot about the drain
that will save you lots of time, instead of doing the old way
-removing the water with a bucket

question...........

how do you install a bottom drain into a flexible liner? I see it written all the time that you should have one, but never how to install one............

Scott,
That was a terrific post and I hope anyone that is considering building a pond reads it.
The best way too build a pond is too do it right the first time. However that is not reasonably possible and I have never met anyone that did it that way. It is called the learning curve and we are all along for the ride. I hope your fish gets better and if you did not put that new filter in see if it would be possible too put in a retro fit drain. I have a drain and now wish I had two of them(or maybe just 1, 4" gravity fed one). If I didn't have it I think I would be up a creek without a paddle.
Aftran,
It all depends on the drain you get. Mine is installed in my liner and so far I have never had a problem. Fingers crossed!!

thanks all for the posts.

Rob your right though, it's difficult to do it right the first time. I could have saved myself a lot though if I'd at least done some research, well I did a little but not nearly enough.



I am going install two 2 inch bottom drains. Two is really better than one, so I've read. You can either cut a hole in your liner to put the bottom drain in (it's simple but then you have the worry if it's going to leak ) , and run the pipe under the pond. Actually that is the best looking way to do it, and I'd do this with mine if didn't have my liner already in place. I'd have to pull up all of the side framing in oder to do this. I bought the bottom drains that sit on the bottom of the pond. They aren't as nice looking as the ones that are put into the liner, but they will do the same job and that job is very important, more important than looks. You just run your pipe down into the pond with the bottom drain on it. One thing that is nice about this type of bottom drain though, if you water is cold you don't have to swim to the bottom to clear off leaves that might be blocking it, you unhook it from the main pipe and pull your bottom drains out of the pond. I am planning on making a vacuum for my pond and I'll fix the connection for the bottom drain to be a screw on pipe type deal so I can either have the bottom drain hooked to the pipe or the vacuum hose.

Rob, I'm not sure what a retro fit drain is?


Scott

COuld you use aquarium sealent (lots?) to prevent leakage?

I don't think that'd work? Not sure though. Are you talking for if you put your bottom drain in the liner?



Scott

yeah

I don't think you'd want to use it for that. Here is what I did, when I put in a bottom drain in my two years ago, of course I ended up taking it out because I expanded yet again and didn't put one back in. It was stupid not to, but anyhow we are resolving the problem

I bought a shower drain and used the pond liner tape in between the screw in's. It's hard to explain because I don't know the proper terms for this stuff. But, I put pond liner tape on the top and the bottom of the pond liner around the hole where the drain is to go. I then took two pieces of pond liner that were twice the size of the hole and placed them on either side of the liner that I put the tape on. So now you have the middle liner which is your main pond liner plus to liner pieces glued to them on either side. Of course you would have cut holes in both of these as well so that your hole is still there. Then put more pond liner tape around the hole on the top and bottom of the liner. I then took the drain, put it in and screw the top of the drain to the bottom of the drain in tight over the pond tape. I then left it out in the sun awhile so that the tape would be sure to melt to the liner real good and cause a good seal. That drain did not leak.


There may be a better way of doing this though? Like I said before I am going to put in my bottom drains without cutting the liner this time. It'll work good for what I want.

Scott

ooookay.......I think I understood that.

What's it take to have a drain without putting a hole in the liner?

you just run your pipe inside the pond to the bottom and attatch your drain, about a quarter of inch from the bottom, face (or screen) down.

Scott

question....

is this just a gravel vac with a screen on the end and a bigger hose?

no, this bottom drain will flow into the pump. You should have two inlets going to your pump, 1. bottom drain 2. skimmer.


Scott

So, a regular shower drain would be enough? I had this discussion with my husband, and he being in the construction business and all day long around plumbers, electricians and so for, suggested the shower drain. Would that work?
I kind of like the idea with the bottom drain solution resting ON TOP of the liner, without cutting the liner open. I would feel so much better knowing that nothing is leaking. Its so hard to fix a fully filled and established pond when the drain suddenly leaks!! Nightmare!!

Yes, a shower drain will work, and is cheaper than buying a bottom drain from the pond places.

Today I finished my inlet lines, so my pipes from the skimmer to the pump and from the bottom drains to the pump are in! I am so happy!!!!!!!!!!!!! What a long weekend. There is still a lot of work to do, but I feel as though I've gotten the worst out of the way. Tomorow I am planning on filling the pond and then finishing the plumming, well as much as possible I do have to work.

I should have taken pictures of what I did and how I did it, I have been in such a hurry to get this done I didn't bother. I'll try and get some pictures of my bottom drain hook-ups so that those questioning this can see what they look like.


Scott

Oh, yeah, pictures would be great!! You had a hard working weekend, Scott!!

Scott,
You just described what I call a retrofit drain. I have one that came with my pump and filter but since I had new construction I had a regular drain put under the pond. If I was in your shoes (which I might be soon) I would do the same thing and use the retro drain. Ripping out the liner and replumbing it is a huge job. Not too mention expensive.
I also have no idea what you mean when you say you can hook a vac up too it. I have vac'd my pond a few times but I use the fill line(hose) too hook it up. Attaching a vac too a bottom drain sounds impossible.
Andrea + Aftran,
If you are putting a bottom drain in your pond I would reccomend using a drain meant for ponds. If it is not set up for a dome you are going too suck your fish into it and that is never good. Trust me. I accomplished that even with the dome and it is not a pretty site.
And the best way too do a bottom drain is too have it feed from a 4" drain via gravity. That way the pump don't chew it up before it gets too the filter. That is the MAJOR flaw of my pond. I would keep researching it if you can because there are DIY filters that work good. Just don't skimp on the pumps like Scott said. That is the heart of your system and you pay for what you get.

Rob, what always puzzles me with the bottom drain gravity fed is, it seems like we have to dig even deeper into the ground to have the gravity effect, or don't I get that right? The waste flows to the deepest point in the pipe under the pond, and from there? It gets sucked into the pump?

Okay, I'm sorry everyone, no pictures today. I got off work late, no surprise when your wanting to get something done huh? Tomorow I should get off work early though so I will take some pictures of my bottom drain.


Scott

It took me awhile too understand the concept of how gravity drains work so hopefully I can simplify it.
This is just for illustrative purposes.
Put two 5 gallon buckets next too each other filled with water.
Then connect a pipe between each of them at the bottom.
Now start siphoning some water out of one of the buckets. Think of this as your pump.
What happens is the water in the other bucket (your pond) flows into the draining bucket(your filter) too reach a level water line. This is how you are able too gravity feed a filter even if the water has too go uphill.
Water will always reach a level so if the final height of your filters and pond is equal, once you hook up a pump too the filter your drains will gravity feed.
And if I had too do it over I would use a 4" gravity fed drain too some type of settlement/vortex before anything else. I don't know much about pond designs but I do know that you can never go wrong with a 4" gravity fed drain.

Great post Scott..

I'm with you all the way....
When my parents moved into their house 15years ago, we bought it because it had an "indoor pond" over a light well. Little did we know about ponds then.... That pond was completely unsuitable for the keeping of fish as it had absolutely no filters. It was basically what I call a hole in the ground filled with water (which in my books does not constitute a fish pond!). So we added on a filter.... a pre-fabricated fibreglass unit. It worked as a filter and we managed to get into the hobby of keeping Japanese Koi... but boy, that big blue box in the corner was an eye sore! Mind you this indoor pond was 16000L (16tons of water!)

Then about 6years ago, we got serious..... The koi were getting bigger and bigger and we thought if we were going to build a pond, may as well make it the mother-of-all ponds! So we went the full way and built a concrete pond 5ft deep and holding a massive 45000L (45tons!). The filter was designated at 40% of the pond area (bloody filters are bigger than most ppls ponds!), the filters were fed by 2 bottom drains which were 6" diameter. Trickle tower filters were designed into the pond design (concealed carefully inside HUGE terracotta vasses and urns), the wet filters were conceled under removable timber decking.... and the cost of this thing came to 1/5 the price of the house! (we're talking big 5figures here)

It works a charm now.... It's so easy to maintain (just pull a few pipes and turn a valve every 3 months), fish have never been happier, all the hardware nicely concealed away and very aesthetically pleasing.

I always tell people, it's not what you see that cost the money... Landscape part is cheap. It's what you DON'T see hiding underneath that cost the big dollars. The pond itself (which is basically an hole in the ground) is not expensive.... it's the gear that goes into the filters!

But at the end of the day, a pond is built to be pleasing and to look good all year round with minimal maintenance. It's not something that will look good for the first 2-3months after it's built and then just turn into a nightmare. Put your money into getting the biggest filtration unit possible! It's going to make your life easier and u'll be so much happier with not having to spend the weekends cleaning the pond!

Do it right the first time and u will enjoy pond keeping. Do it on the cheap and u're going to be in for a disaster and lots of work... so much work to up keep it u won't want to do it.

I have now revamped the 16000L indoor pond since... It's been rebuilt (propperly) in the same model as the big pond outside.... Minimal maintenance required, maximum filtration and all hardware nicely concealed away. Propper planing is essential when builing ponds. Visit as many ponds as you can. Ideally visit ponds that have been around and running for at least 5-10years. If it's lasted that long, the owners would be able to tell you all their problems and advice you on what to do differently or what to do the same....

good luck to all aspiring pond keepers

kev

Also, on the topic of pumps.... I will relate my experience with getting efficeint pumps to do the job.

When my big outdoor pond was built, we started off with 2 German made pumps (Grundfos) which each turned over 20,000L/hr. They were each rated at 750W and combined, they ran at 1500W/hr. The powerbill to run the pond came up to about $700/month on those 2 pumps! The cost of these German pumps were $450 each

That I thought was ridiculous....

So, after a couple months of hunting around for more efficient pumps to do the volume, I stumbled upon these solids handling vortex pumps (Tsurumi) made in Japan that did 18000L/hr and only ran on 150W! We've got 3 of those running now and the volume they turn over is 54000L which is more than the previous German pumps, but only running combined at 450W (Which is less than ONE Grundfos pump!!). Power bill has dropped to less than $200. The cost of these Japanese pumps were $800each... and they have been running for 5years, 24/7 without having anything replaced.

The difference in the 2 pumps are that the German pumps had a lot of power put into head height (ie shooting the water up). It could shoot the water up to 10m high (!!) whereas the Japanese pumps had a head height of only 2m. I wasn't going to need the 10m head height anyway so there was no reason to get a pump that consumed so much power doing something I didn't need....

Running the more expensive pump will save me a lot more money in the long run ($200/month as opposed to $700/month is a BIG BIG savings!!!). The moral of the story is to know what u need the hardware to do and get the hardware that is most efficeint at doing what u want it to do. A bit more up front will save you HEAPS down the road.

kev

wow
thats one inspiring story kevkoi!
you really know your stuff and take
fish keeping to the next level
unfortunately some of us dont have the
big $s or space to build massive, elegant ponds( im a student )
i would like to dont get me wrong but
that will be something i will look forward to in the future
the main thing about building a pond is like what you said
get to know what your working with through research and
not thinking like my cousin thats you can build your pond
on the weekend and thats it
two months down the track and your hit with all these problems
and youll probably start from square one again

Slippery,

Kevkoi is right though. If you are going to put a pond in, you should spend the extra money to put in the right system to pump and filter. Because honestly, if you put a large pond it and you buy cheap pump and filter believe it or not but this is true, you will end up spending as much if not more in maintenance as you would have if you'd have forked out the extra money for the right system. Your savings with a good pump and filter system is that much. It is as waste of time and money for you to go cheap. I know this part of the hobby is the toughest part but once you've paid your cover charge everything else is gravey! And I understand the coming up with the money, I've scraped together the money for what I have, I had to borrow for this last pump and filter system as well.

Scott

Excellent posts guys!! Always have wanted a pond. You have got a beautiful pond and fish Scott:) Being a newb when it comes to ponds, I was wondering what yall thought of this site,WaterGarden I visit it often, to dream of ponds hehe. Anyway, they have these pond kits and being a newb and all, I am not sure if these are good things included in these kits or not. I think its great that they do this, especially for newbs who wouldnt know where to even start or what to buy. They also have a great feature of the "custom pond" kits, where they ask you what dimensions you want it to be and depth and waterfalls and such. If you experts have the time, if you could check out the kits for me, they have the economy <--- and supreme and the custom. I just wasnt sure like you said in your earlier post, if I were to say get the 700 gallon and it wasnt a good pump at all that was in the kit. I wouldnt want to get something that was too small or weak. Hope that wasnt too confusing

Rob, I got a pretty clear picture of your discription, and it sounds fairly simple to do (having a plumber in the family and all . Lets see if I got this right - the pump is AFTER the filter, right? From the drain, into the filter, into the pump?

just remember if you are building a small pond the underwater pumps will probably be fine, you need to have some sort of filtration with it. Usually these pumps have something that will go with this for filtration. If you are building a larger pond don't try and use a larger underwater pump, they generally use an excessive amount of electricity. Most people use the sequence pump because they are very efficent and do the job well. There are other pumps like it, so you'd want to check around for good prices and try and found out all you can. Flow rate, cost to run etc....... Also, if you are using one of these pumps you also need to get a good filtration system, do your research on these as well as they are always improving with something new.

Scott

BTW, I though it was a good site.

i knew all you pond guys were fairly wealthy
i wasnt going to pay for my pond anyway
my dad can do that
like with my old pond i got it for my birthday- it was 400 or something
it being over sixy ears so im guessing the bugdet will be about 3000

besides the pond what other equipmet will i definitely need?
(im guessing Scott, Kevkoi that your like my dad, the garage is full of gadgets
half of which has never seen sunlight )
and just one last question
do you add salt to your pond?

Andrea,
You got it right.
Bottom drain to mechanical filtration (vortex or settlement tank).
Then too biological filtration.
Then you hook up the pump.
From there the options are endless. You could the send it through a Uv or a trickle tower just too mention some of the better alternatives.
Then back into the pond with a waterfall and some TPR's.
It sounds easy but everything has too be done right, you will have too build a filter pit, and all pumps and pipe diameter has too be correct. If done correctly you will never have too mess around with the filtration ever again and maintenance will be a snap.
They say the cheapest way too build a pond is too do it right the first time. That is what this whole thread is about. You really need too do your homework and maybe check out a site like www.akca.org. They have a nice section about building that you can download and printout for free. It is under the health advisor section (I think).
I wish I did more homework before having my pond done.
Sls,
I only used salt when I started up my pond for the nitrite part of the cycle. After that you should not need it and it is detrimental too keep them in a salted environment all of the time.

Kevkoi,
If you can would it be possible for you too post a couple pictures of your pond and filtration sysytem.
Thanks in advance.

I think I've posted the ponds up a couple times already... but here it goes again...
Pond in 2003....

This is pic of pond right after completion... Timber decking you see in the photo hides all the filtration. That whole area underneath houses the settlement chamber, the biological filter, the pump sump and an overflow dry sump.

Here's an incomplete schematic for part of the filter design.... There are about 3other drawings that accompany this one for it to make sense... but u'll see that it's not a simple thing.

Everything is design and constructed from basics. Commercially bought off the self filters don't work well enough for such large ponds and most definately will not be capable of taking care of the waste of 30 large koi. Koi ponds are different from garden ornamental ponds.... Some serious oversized filters in koi ponds!.

Indoor pond before...
Had blue tiles on it and no filtration... A blue box filter had to be incorporated in order to keep fish. Because this pond is inside the house facing the living and dining room, the blue box (while functional) is aesthetically an eye sore.

Picture taken in late 1996 b4 serious koi fever hit.

Indoor pond revamped in 2003. Blue box GONE! Bottom drain installed. Filtration unit built into the pond and again concealed under removable timber decking. Blue tiles removed and a grey/black render applied. Darker base of pond tends to show off the colours of the fish better. Concrete render also allows a carpet layer of very attractive green algae to grow on it.

Urn in the center of the pond conceals 1000 bioballs as a trickle filter.... additional filtration.

Pond now houses young koi growing up and LARGE goldfish.

and FINALLY, here's a picture of my uncle going ga-ga over the koi.... LOL

Ok ok... one more picture. Recently taken in Jan 2004.

Favourite photo spot for all the relos....

This is Nick... an Aussie cousin.

Wow, Kevkoi, that looks like it was a lot of hard work. I have always enjoyed looking at the pictures of your pond, it looks so stylish. And after staring at the drawing of the filtration system for a while, it doesn't look so confusing anymore.
Rob, did you go to that seminar about the koi farm experience? Matt, the british guy, held the seminar, and told of all the mistakes they had made in the beginning, and all the repair and reconstruction the had to do because of it. Wow, simple mistakes that even I figured out the first time we started our interest in ponds.

Kev,
Thanks for the pictures and the diagram. That clears things up nicely. And with thirty large koi you must need all the filtration you can get. Very nice, both the pond and fish.
Andrea,
I caught the last 15 minutes of it since it went a little longer than it was scheduled.

Im building my second pond and it's been over 5 years
and my last one was simple "C#a%p" and don't want to
do any mistakes on this new pond.

I need all the information to have a perfect pond

great pond kevkoi
how long has your uncle had the pond for?
and how long does it take to get into such good shape
with so many fish?
-i mean you wouldnt buy them all at once would you?

My uncle ain't got the pond.. He's just visiting, and like all visitors to the house the pond and fish petting are main attractions at the house. (Well, used to have the 2 dogs, but they've passed on now, so no more dogs to contend with fish for petting sesions.. )

Fish were aquired over a 5-6year period.

The main maintenance routine is cutting back the landscape. The plants grow MAD with all the fertiliser produced by the koi. Feeding is a big part of the expenditure yearly. We estimate, there is some 50kg of high quality dry pelleted food going into the pond every year!

kev

wow did you say 50kg
thats amazing!!!
i feed probably less than one kg a year

WOW

Mazuri gave away 40 lb bags for free at the Orlando show. I get the feeling you would have needed some, Kevkoi! They have very highly recommended turtle/tortoise food, so my hubby decided to walk over there once a day and grab a bag each time!

i would love to go to that show Andrea.
But i live so far from there,Quebec canada.
It would be sutch a great experience.

he he he.... I think I may have to take you up on that offer of free food. My Dad just informed me yesterday that no, the kois no longer go thru 50kg of food a year now.... it's close to double that.

I think the fish are eating us poor!


kev