[Sakura]

Hello. I will start off with water conditions, tested earlier today.

Nitrate: 0-20
Nitrite: 0
Hardness: 25 (very soft)
Chlorine: 0 (of course)
Alkalinity: 300 (high)
pH: 8.4 (alkaline)
Ammonia 3.0-6.0 (harmful-danger)

Alright, so obviously the ammonia is in bad shape. I just did a 50% water change about two hours ago that should help that though. Previously the ammonia levels have been very good, so I think it's just a spike from adding a fish recently. My tank is a 29 gallon with two Marineland filters, each rated for 20 gallons. I also have a Rena air pump running in the tank. I've been trying to siphon about 15% of the water every few days or so, because my tank is slightly overstocked. I have one fantail (two inches), two ryukins (one inch each), one crown pearlscale (one inch), and one telescope eye (one inch). I also have an ivory mystery snail, live plants, and two pieces of cured driftwood. The tank is relatively new (a little over a week), but I used substrate and a filter from an established tank to get this one set up, so some bacteria population could be transferred. I have had the fantail for a number of years. I got the ryukins about 2 weeks ago, the telescope about 1 week ago, and the pearlscale a couple days ago. This is the first time I have done a water sample on this new 29 gallon tank, but in my last tank, water conditions were always very good. (And that was three of these fish in a 10 gallon!) I use aquarium salt (one-half teaspoon for every gallon) to help them produce slime coat.

Now to the problem at hand. A few days ago (after we added the pearlscale) I noticed my telescope eye keeping her dorsal fin down, and I even saw her flick it once. I decided to wait and see if it was just a fluke or if she really was sick. The next day I thought she was better, until I saw her flashing and hitting herself against a leaf in the aquarium. I put her in a small plastic container when I feed her to make sure she gets enough, and when I did this, I noticed she had some red streaks in her tail that weren't there before. At first I wasn't sure if it was just some new coloration that I hadn't noticed, or if it was something wrong. The next day the red streaks in the tail were more numerous and pronounced, so I put her in a qt tank. At first I thought it was an internal parasite, so I put a parasite clear tablet in the water. After researching it some more, I think it's actually hemorrhagic septicemia, so at work today I picked up some Maracyn 2, and am now treating her with that (after having changed the water to get rid of the parasite clear). I read somewhere that it's bad to use the aquarium salt while treating with medication, is this true? Also, does anyone think this could be something other than septicemia? I want to make sure I'm treating for the correct disease. She is not showing any signs of diminished appetite or unusual waste. Her only current symptoms are occasionally swimming in a jerky fashion, and the red streaks in her tail fin. Also, how likely is it that she will make it? I'm really worried about her. The other goldfish seem to be doing just fine, and are showing no symptoms. I'm feeding them medicated food (antibacterial) just in case though! Any tips would be much appreciated! Thank you!

[Chloeheartsfish]

I am not a Mod (only they are qualified to give medical advice) but one thing I can say for sure is that you are wickedly overstocked. Goldfish need 10 gallons each, so you should only have two fish in there - maybe three if you went totally bare with extra filtration.

The overstocked tank, plus the fact that they were recently moved into an uncycled tank, is likely causing stress which is why these symptoms are popping up. The good bacteria you MAY have transferred over simply cannot handle all the waste being produced by so many fish in such a small space.

Keep monitoring the ammonia and doing extra water changes is my advice. You need to get three of those fish out of there as soon as possible.

Good luck and keep us posted.

[Sakura]

Thanks, but like I said I know it is overstocked. I know that the ideal amount of goldfish for the tank is three, but it's just not possible currently. I want a bigger tank, but it's extremely expensive, we just bought the current one, and my husband is not happy with the idea of a 75 gallon tank in our small one bedroom apartment. You should just be glad I'm not keeping them in a fish (death) bowl. Unless you happen to have a 75 gallon tank that you want to give away... yeah.

I know that I did in fact transfer over a good amount of bacteria. There is no way I couldn't have. I took ALL the gravel, plants, decorations, the filter,22 even some of the water from the previous established tank. I took these things directly from the old tank to the new, with as little disturbance as possible.

[Chloeheartsfish]

One of the tricks than many have used here with great success is to go and buy a few inexpensive large Rubbermade containers and move fish into those as temporary quarantine holders. However, that also means buying filters for all those containers, or atleast air pumps to keep the water moving.

I am indeed glad that you are not keeping them in bowls. I was only trying to help :) I know the panicked feeling of realizing you may have gotten in over your head with pet care. I used to work in a pet store as well and came home with far too many fish than my tank could handle and watched them all die helplessly when medication didn't work. In most cases it is simply water quality that is often the reason for goldfish illness. We underestimate how messy those little guys are!

It is unfortunate that your husband is not understanding of how much room you will need, but it doesn't change the fact that you will indeed need at least a 50 gallon tank pretty quick, or two or three smaller tanks. That is simply what is needed for the pets you have chosen. I was in a similar situation myself for bit, with too many fish and not enough tank, and I managed to hold out for a few weeks by doing 75% H2O changes every day. Luckily my fish loved the pure water and blossomed beautifully, but it sure was a lot of work! :)

Again I mean no disrespect to you at all and I do not mean to make you feel bad. I was right where you are about a year ago! This is a great place with so many caring and patient people and you can learn so much by reading through older threads. Hopefully a Mod will be along soon to help you through this.

Also if you are concerned about the price of a larger tank, try looking to see if you have a local fishkeeping club. There are often great deals to be had there. Many times their are tanks for sale for only a dollar a gallon!

[amynmitchell]

I actually managed to do a tank trade from a 29 to a 55 gallon hex (not the ideal shape for goldies, but oddly enough takes up less floor space than the 29) on Craigslist. It didn't cost me anything which was amazing.

I have found that even with a solid cycle, the good bacteria may not be able to eat all of the ammonia produced by goldies if you are overstocked. And some fish react more rapidly to deadly ammonia conditions than others. I think you have ammonia posioning and no amount of meds are going to cure that...just lots and lots of water changes.

Did you QT your new fish before adding them to the tank? Have any of your fish been treated for flukes? All fish carry them for the most part even when coming from the best stores, so Prazi is usually the basic practice for a new fish.


Welcome to Kokos! Hopefully we can help get your telescope feeling better.

[Sakura]

Hi! I'm currently searching craigslist for a good deal, and really hoping I can find something good. I really hope I can find someone to trade with like you did! We shall see. Yes, I heard that only a certain amount of bacteria can even exist in a given tank, due to its size, and this will sometimes not be enough for the amount of waste the fish produce. I think that probably the combination of it being a new tank, new fish arriving, and slightly overstocked is what got this one sick. You said that no amount of meds will cure ammonia poisoning...so do you recommend that I quit treating her, put her back in the tank, and perform massive water changes until the ammonia levels are in check? Or continue treating her separately, while doing water changes in the main tank, and then put her back after her treatment is finished? I just really don't want to lose her :( I have heard that telescopes are more sensitive in regards to water quality.

You hit my weak spot on the qt the new arrivals question! I'm probably the most impatient person on the earth, and so no, I didn't qt them. :( I know I should. I guess I justified it partly because I keep a small concentration of aquarium salt in the water at all times, which I know helps to ward off illness. And I never buy a fish from a tank that has sick looking ones in it. However, you are right, I really should try to quarantine new arrivals. But, what's done is done now. I don't think I'll be needing to do that anytime soon either, since I already have too many fish on my hands! haha

[Sakura]

I just posted a wanted add on craigslist for a trade, so hopefully someone out there wants to downsize so that I can upgrade! *crossing my fingers* :)

[Trinket]

Hi Sakura and a very warm welcome to kokos :exactly! To you and your fish.
Chloe and Amy have given you some very good help here.

May I suggest you focus on getting the water ammonia free before any kind of medication at all. Bear with me, here's why..

At a level of 3 for ammonia your fish will develop red streaks in their tails -this is a symptom of ammonia not disease and this is something that is going to continue and/or develop in all the fish unless you can manage daily larger water changes to clear the ammonia. Ammonia that a cycle cannot handle -in a cycled tank- can only be removed via water changes.

What happened when you transferred your cycle, very wisely, from the old tank was, with the new fish it just was not enough :(. Its sort of something like 5 sq.inches of cycle- bacteria- loaded- media per fish so you need another 15 inches! That is all -as you know -in gravel and media NOT the water. Your cycle will grow back to suit the number of fish- but it will take some time especially since you have zero for nitrites and nitrates which suggests you are right back at stage one again.

The trouble with cycle transfer is the bbs (beneficial bacteria) are very sensitive to chlorine, temperature drops or changes, pH changes etc- and its likely that the bbs you had may have taken a tumble en route.

Nothing is more important for your fishes health than a robust cycle. That is your priority before meds. Meds will kill a fish fast if there is any ammonia in the water and meds can also kill beneficial bacteria/your cycle whatever the pack says.

Personally I think the Parasite Cleartank tabs you started with were the correct meds not Maracyn or the bacterial food here.

All new fish MUST be treated for flukes and PC tabs covers most of the parasites that new fish invariably come in with and also contains an antibacterial agent (Metro) that kills many dangerous anaerobe bacteria.

However. The water must be ammonia free to use any meds. This is going to be hard in an overstocked tank, not impossible but very hard to achieve.

Since you added the new fish straight in with the old fish (we have all done it and learned after lol) you will be needing to now treat ALL your fish for flukes. I would stop with the Maracyn. Go back to the PC tabs and be doing 80% w/cs daily until you can build back that cycle and/or get a larger space going :)

Good luck. Lots of arm power and please stay posting so we can talk you through any hiccups as they occur. Every one of us has been in your shoes at some point, some of us many times.

[Sakura]

Hmm, general consensus seems to be that I should stop meds on my telescope in the isolation tank, and put her back into the main tank, yes? Since it was probably ammonia poisoning. But Trinket, you think I should treat them all for parasites? Why is this necessary if they aren't showing any signs of illness? What makes you so sure that all fish come in with parasites? So if I do treat them all then, would it be too terribly bad to wait to treat them until I get the ammonia in check? Just to make doubly sure that the combination of ammonia and meds isn't harmful? Besides I would have to figure out exactly how much to remedicate every time I did a massive water change. Yes, I think my plan will be to put my telescope back in the main tank, do water changes until the ammonia and everything else looks good, then medicate them all for parasites. (If that last bit is necessary) A new development (after a 50% water change last night, now my water is a bit cloudy! grrr... Any thoughts on why this would be?

[Sakura]

Oh, I have one other question: I want to buy one of those ammonia testers that claim to continuously check the ammonia. It's on a little suction cup, and you stick it in there, and it apparently gives you a continuous reading that changes as water conditions change (although sometimes delayed). Some claim to last for a year, while others a month. Are these really reliable? Because I think it would really help in this situation. Also will it help to feed my fish less (so they produce less waste and less ammonia) while trying to get the ammonia levels in check again?

http://addicted2cich...nia%20alert.jpg This is what they look like, sorry for the bad image quality!

[Sakura]

Something else I just noticed on my little telescope eye... both her eyes used to be the same size, (bulge-iness) but now one is much larger than the other! This happened just in a matter of a couple days. What is going on?!

[amynmitchell]

I am sure Trinket will get back on here to help more...she is our go to gal for any sick fish. She has saved many a goldie on here and is basically nothing short of amazing.

It sounds like your telescope might be developing popeye as well now. Again, it is a water quality issue. It is hard when you see symptoms not to want to medicate like crazy (especially if you are impatient like me), but this really is about the water.

I have used those ammonia sensors, but haven't found that they always read the true ammonia in the water, but I do think they are a good safety system in a situation like this. Just don't stop testing. Put it on the tank and keep an eye on it, but for now I would still test everty day as well.

We will see what Trinket says, but I think your plan of doing massive daily water changes (I'm guessing 75% a day) so that there is never any ammonia or nitrite present until your cycle picks up will be the best idea. Your telescope can stay in QT, but because that isn't cycled either it will mean doing the same water changes on her until she seems well enough to go in the main tank. It would ease some of the load on the overstocked tank.

I don't think Trinket would be opposed to you waiting a week or two until you do the PC tabs. And yes, all fish have flukes unless they have been scraped and proven not to. It is really the only case where you go ahead and medicate. And the PC tabs are very safe in good water. It is kind of like ich. All fish have some ich on them, which is why a fish when stressed will suddenly break out with white spots. Their immune system was weak, allowing the ich to overtake them.

Salt at certain levels will kill many parasites. That is why most of us salt our new fish at .03% for the first two weeks in QT. But a low level of salt in a freshwater tank doesn't really do anything. In fact, many people think it is problematic because it causes parasites to build up a tolerance to salt.

Anyway, you are doing great...just lots of water changes will get those babies well.

[Sakura]

Amy, I really like your thoughts about using aquarium salt - I think I'm going to start phasing out the use of salt in my main tank. I just did the 75% water change for today - whew, that's a lot of work! haha I think they are happy about the fresh water though! :)

Oh, I decided to go ahead and put my telescope back into the main tank with the others. It sounds like it's ammonia poisoning, and it's not something that she can transfer to them or anything, so back in she goes. It will be easier for me to keep the water clean just in one tank rather than in the main and the qt tank anyways. Thus, safer for them. My qt tank at the moment is only a five gallon anyway, so I felt really bad about having her in there. I stopped the meds, and after the ammonia gets to a good level I'm planning on doing the parasite clear tablet. Sound good? Oh, and I've also posted a wanted add on craigslist for a larger aquarium! I've gotten two replies, but so far nobody who wants to actually trade... we'll see what else comes in though.

[Sakura]

Here is a picture of her!
http://i658.photobucket.com/albums/uu305/miss_cherry_blossom/IMG_2819.jpg

[Chloeheartsfish]

She is beautiful!!!

[Trinket]

So cute. And you take great pics!!

Yes do get the ammonia/cycle situ sorted first. The flukes treatment can wait. Unless they show worsening symptoms I would wait till the tank is cycled to treat for flukes. But it should be done at some point.

The cloudy water is probably good bacteria (nitrosomonas) transferring (looking for a place to attach to breed) at this point in a cycle its a good idea to add more floss and ceramic hoops etc to your filter box to give the bbs more places to attach and breed. They cannot multiply free living in the water, they must attach to be of any use. If your water checks okay for ammonia/nitrites you dont have to worry about it. Should settle within a week.

[amynmitchell]

What a cutie! It sounds like you are getting everything sorted out. Just lots of armwork until you get the cycle back up and running. And I'll keep my fingers crossed for a tank trade. You would be surprised at what can turn up.

[Sakura]

Thanks everyone! I have a question, about how long will it take before I can stop doing massive water changes everyday? Also I'm a little worried about her bulging eye, but it doesn't seem to be getting any worse at least. Could it be that it's just normal growth? The red streaks in her tail are gone! :)

[amynmitchell]

You have to let your test kit be your guide, but not strips because those won't really tell you much. When you show 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites and 10 nitrates at least you are good to wait a week. But because your cycle is still new I would keep testing every few days until you know for sure things are good. http://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/forum/public/style_emoticons/default/testkit.gif

[Sakura]

By test kit do you mean the solution that you put into a sample of the water, and it turns the water a certain color that corresponds to a number? Because since I work at vvvv, I've just been bringing in a sample of my water periodically to have it tested, and we use test strips there. (Dip in the water and the pad changes color, which corresponds to a number.) Are you saying that way is less reliable? If so, well I didn't know that! :unsure:

Also: If I am doing 75% water changes every day, how is the good bacteria going to be able to establish itself?

The red streaks were completely gone this morning, but I just did a water change and noticed them in her tail again! :( Now I don't know if it was the medicine that made them go away for a period, or if it was the water change that helped. I'm pretty much at a loss right now. Her eye still looks goofy too, but she's still eating and acting fairly normal, so I guess we'll see.